Packs and Cloaks

A place for pics and tutorials on making Soft Kit (clothing and accessories like buckles and cloak pins).

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Le-Loup
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Le-Loup »

Lori wrote:
Can you unpack that thought.... I am curious what you are saying with these links. The second one does not seem to be historical, more like fantasy and film. Was there a particular picture that stood out as historically accurate?
I believe that one of the images, the one that states "how to wear a quiver with a cloak" was supposed to come from a serious medieval group. Ultimately it is your/our job to work out if this is of any interest or not. However, at best it is only tertiary information unless this group provides documentation. I could have read it wrong, in which case I apologies for wasting your time. I will try & be more careful in future.
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Kortoso
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Kortoso »

Greg wrote:The thing that convinces me that the quiver was intended to be on the back is that Tolkien was alive and writing amidst the 20th. cen. thought that that's where quivers were carried [see: Errol Flynn's robin Hood]. The word quiver so rarely is even used when referring to real medieval methods of carrying; more often a sheaf, etc. Add to that that Legolas' knife is stated as being at his side in the same sentence as a quiver is mentioned, as if to separate it from the quiver. Again, in Ithilien, we have that same separation of the quiver and the swords at their sides.

I'm pretty confident that we're right.
Agreed. When I envision a practical shoulder quiver, of course I think of Howard Hill. (Of course I don't think of him wearing a cloak.) I'm not sure whether Tolkien was exposed to him, but I'm sure the English longbow tradition was being revived about his time, and its probably what inspired Hill.
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Taurinor
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Taurinor »

Disclaimer - I don't carry arrows when I'm trekking (I do a lot of my camping at state parks, where bows are not allowed), so my thoughts on the matter are mostly theoretical. I also use a rectangular brat-style cloak that I usually don't wear in cloak fashion while hiking; I typically wear it in an American Civil War blanket roll-type configuration while on the move, folded and wrapped across my chest from shoulder to hip, and unroll it after making camp when the temperature begins to drop in the evening. With than in mind, please take the following with however many grains of salt as you find appropriate.

It could be worth considering a separate hood and cloak, as opposed to the hooded cloaks used for the movies. Most extant garments and illustrations from the Middle Ages that I've seen seem to indicate that hoods and cloaks were individual garments more often than they were combined.

Tolkien does mentioned hooded cloaks, though:
The Hobbit, Chapter 1: An Unexpected Party wrote:He hung his hooded cloak on the nearest peg, and ‘Dwalin at your service!’ he said with a low bow.
On the other hand, a few other descriptions could be interpreted as describing separate hoods and cloaks:
The Hobbit, Chapter 2: Roast Mutton wrote:“Don’t be precise,” said Dwalin, “and don’t worry! You will have to manage without pocket-handkerchiefs, and a good many other things, before you get to the journey’s end. As for a hat, I have got a spare hood and cloak in my luggage.”

That’s how they all came to start, jogging off from the inn one fine morning just before May, on laden ponies; and Bilbo was wearing a dark-green hood (a little weather-stained) and a dark-green cloak borrowed from Dwalin.
The Lord of the Rings, Book I The Ring Sets Out, Chapter 1: A Long-Expected Party wrote:From a locked drawer, smelling of moth-balls, he took out an old cloak and hood. They had been locked up as if they were very precious, but they were so patched and weatherstained that their original colour could hardly be guessed: it might have been dark green.
The Lord of the Rings, Book I: The Ring Sets Out, Chapter 9: At the Sign of the Prancing Pony wrote:A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits.
The last quote describing Strider could be read as describing a separate hood and cloak, but it might be reading too much into "a hood" (as opposed to "the hood [of the cloak]). I think a reasonable case can be made for Bilbo's borrowed dwarf cloak and hood being separate garments, though (even if Dwalin's other cloak is specifically a "hooded cloak"). That doesn't mean that Rangers used them, of course, but suggests they were around.

A separate cloak and hood can give the wearer a few more options than a hooded cloak. When worn in combination with a pack, the hood can be put on first and the pack can be put on over it. The cloak can then been draped over the pack, or packed away. Most medieval hoods have a capelet of sorts that covers the shoulders (to varying degrees), so in a light rain the hood can be pulled up to protect the head and the capelet will protect the shoulders. In heavier rain the full cloak could be used to protect Ranger and gear, at least until shelter could be found.

For use with a quiver, I think the advantage of a separate cloak and hood is that the opening of the cloak can be moved around the body without moving the hood. A quiver could be strapped on over the hood. For a right handed ranger, the cloak could then be clasped high on the right shoulder over the quiver. Some of the cloak would then need to be folded back over the quiver, but most of the cloth of the cloak would be on the left side of the body. Depending on sword length and carriage, this could potentially cause a new set of problems, but the left side of cloak could be folded back on itself to deal with that.

Here's some cloaks from the Bayeux Tapestry - one man is wearing his with the clasp in the center of his chest, and it looks like the other two are wearing their cloaks pinned at the shoulder.
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I will note that most pictures that I've seen showing someone wearing a separate cloak and hood shows the hood as the outermost layer, not the cloak, but I think for our purposes it may be better to wear the cloak over the hood.
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caedmon
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by caedmon »

Wow, so much good information. I'm not sure that I want to even post again because it might derail things.

For me this is has always been a bit theoretical. I think my standard preferences have been voiced many times:
  • longer 'bocksten' open shoulder style cloak with separate hood.
  • horizontal strap bundle/blanket
  • marry rose arrow bag
But this is not Tolkien's image of a Ranger. We know that Strider wore a cloak and/with a hood. The specifics are unclear, but the standard interpretation is a front opening hooded cloak. We know that the fellowship trudged, horseless, and carried gear & arrows. This has traditionally been seen as a one or two shoulder pack, and a quiver.

I'm not sure that there is a good way to harmonize these things. I don't think slits are the way to go because they destroy one of the primary purposes of a cloak, warmth. The horizontal strap pack, has the wrong feel but seems like the best option, and I think I am going to stick with the arrow bag, because I hate quivers, and it's only for packing them around.

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Udwin
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Udwin »

Taurinor wrote:On the other hand, a few other descriptions could be interpreted as describing separate hoods and cloaks:
Ach, such serendipity! Last night I was Literally drafting an essay related to this topic...which will likely be published in this winter's edition of Edge of the Wild. BUT--you missed a key passage in The Hobbit Ch 1 that directly supports your position:

“Now we are all here!" said Gandalf, looking at the row of thirteen hoods—the best detachable party hoods—and his own hat hanging on the pegs.”
It is interesting that in his draft for the 1960 Hobbit, Tolkien omitted the parenthetical (Rateliff: History of the Hobbit p.775), perhaps for its more whimsical tone, out-of-place in that more serious resetting.
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Taurinor
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Taurinor »

Udwin wrote:BUT--you missed a key passage in The Hobbit Ch 1 that directly supports your position:

“Now we are all here!" said Gandalf, looking at the row of thirteen hoods—the best detachable party hoods—and his own hat hanging on the pegs.”
Ah, so I did! I wonder what makes a hood a "party hood"? The bright colors and perhaps a tassel (as Thorin's hood is described as having)? Somehow I can't imagine a ranger wearing anything that could be called a party hood, though...
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Greg
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Greg »

Maybe just keep one stowed at Rivendell for those dressy council meetings?
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caedmon
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by caedmon »

Greg wrote:Maybe just keep one stowed at Rivendell for those dressy council meetings?
Yeah, but that really begs the question, what's the difference between the reception for the average ranger in RIvendell and that of Elrond's future son-in-law and heir to the throne of Men?

One of the big issues with our evidence is that our 'non-elven' characters have eldritch artifacts, are accompanied by royalty, and/or minor gods, or are emmisaries for great powers. I feel like the average Ranger's reception in Rivendell would be far less accomodating than that received by Aragorn, or any Hobbits.
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Elleth
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Elleth »

One of the big issues with our evidence is that our 'non-elven' characters have eldritch artifacts, are accompanied by royalty, and/or minor gods, or are emmisaries for great powers. I feel like the average Ranger's reception in Rivendell would be far less accomodating than that received by Aragorn, or any Hobbits.
If we're talking Rangers, I think I have to disagree - most of the action is offscreen, but if memory serves there's a fair amount of "joint operations" between the elves of Rivendell and the Rangers. (The search for Gollum comes to mind).

That's not to say I think the average Ranger would be invited to council meetings or given a grand feast, but I expect a Dunedain passing through Elrond's territory could reasonably expect a roof for the night and a warm meal - and of course expect to offer the same in kind.
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Elleth
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Elleth »

re: separate hoods and cloaks. Certainly I think the real garments that inspired the hooded cloak in fiction (and especially the caped hooded cloak) were historically separate garments all along. And it is a much more practical solution - easy layering according to climate and need, economical use of fabric - it just makes practical sense.

That said, I'm (finally) getting close to finishing my hooded cloak and I don't care - just as with the leather back quiver, embracing the archetype is much more fun I think.
Personally, I aim for strict-as-possible authenticity in terms of materials and workmanship - something that could have actually been crafted in Middle Earth and is internally consistent - but I'm quite happy to prioritize the romantic over the historical when it comes to simple aesthetics.

Oh - and LeLoup - scrolling down, I saw the images you were referring to. Interestingly, those are WETA-made Ithilien Ranger costumes. There was a parade or something (in New Zealand I think) shortly after the films were released, and some of the photos taken there have been part of the LOTR costume reference library ever since. :)
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Greg
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Greg »

Elleth wrote:Personally, I aim for strict-as-possible authenticity in terms of materials and workmanship - something that could have actually been crafted in Middle Earth and is internally consistent - but I'm quite happy to prioritize the romantic over the historical when it comes to simple aesthetics.
Agree with this completely. Ultimately, we have to remember this is a fantasy forum; we just have to differentiate between when we're referring to real, genuine historical information, real, genuine Middle-Earth information, and personal preference so we don't wind up like I did a few years back, being completely convinced in my head that the Grey company were clad all in Grey and Black...all Weta's Fault.
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Mirimaran
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Mirimaran »

As for cloaks, my own has a split in the back, and works fine for me, quite comfy in fact and has an attached hood. Though I still wonder on the cloaks of the Grey Company, as I am sure Tolkien means for their cloaks to be wore in the Anglo-Saxon fashion, pinned by their stars at the left shoulder (which I had read somewhere that in those times it was a sign of rebellion to wear a cloak as such, the fashion being to the right).

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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by neoaliphant »

Kortoso wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:32 pm
Can anyone find an instance of shoulder quivers used in the middle ages?
7 years after the post, just joined teh forum so i could comment

when i did saxon reenactment i used a shorter bow than most people, far easier to use in woodland, and ins axon times they often had shorter bows , which had a shorter arrow, often puled to chest not cheek.

also recurve shorter bows were used as well in medieval times

on a later medieval battle field with welsh.englisg warbows, they had a much longer draw length, but they werent being used for accuracy so much with the 150lbs pull
its difficult to use long arrows from the back unless you have a short length quiver, and arrows would fall out when you move.

i did testing of a back quiver with my shorter 24" arrows, i had a linen quiver with tablet weaving neck stiffeer, the bottom of the quiver reached my belt, and was leather thong tied in place.
i found that i could run and jump and the arrows stayed in place because they were shorter.
also the speed of shooting was much higher, especially when moving, the chest drawing of arrows helped,

so i asked an archaelogist friend and he found manuscript drawing evidence of a quiver being used on the back....

most cloth based archaeology of the time didnt survive, only a few viking boots were found so vary difficult for reenactors getting correct footwear...

the bayeux tapestry depicts soldiers and battlefields, not the loadout of skirmishers/hunters....

on youtube Shadiversity and Living Anachronism have done some videos over the last year on related subjects....
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Turgolanas »

I use a pack and cloak, and I found that putting the cloak over the pack is both convenient and shields the pack from rain.

I wasn't able to make a pack and quiver work well, but using a quiver bedroll combo, I put the cloak over the quiver and bedroll. I'm using a bocksten cloak with a pinned neck opening rather than sewed, so my neck opening is large enough to go around the arrows. Worked excellently that way, and the separate hood covered the larger neck hole in that instance.

I think if the pack could go over the quiver (so the quiver is close to the body) this same technique would work with a pack and quiver. Cortharyn has this setup, and I believe my cloak design works with his setup over the pack and around the quiver.
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by neoaliphant »

Turgolanas wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 2:39 pm I use a pack and cloak, and I found that putting the cloak over the pack is both convenient and shields the pack from rain.

I wasn't able to make a pack and quiver work well, but using a quiver bedroll combo, I put the cloak over the quiver and bedroll. I'm using a bocksten cloak with a pinned neck opening rather than sewed, so my neck opening is large enough to go around the arrows. Worked excellently that way, and the separate hood covered the larger neck hole in that instance.

I think if the pack could go over the quiver (so the quiver is close to the body) this same technique would work with a pack and quiver. Cortharyn has this setup, and I believe my cloak design works with his setup over the pack and around the quiver.
when i did saxon renactment, i had a rectangular cloak worn a bit kilt like, as in a sash and gathered with belt for geenral use, and worn full over with brooch when cold, this meant could wear quiver on back unhindered if it went along from teh shoulder with cloak,

the seperate hood is a good idea, helps shed rain, looks good, and prevents wear on tunic from straps etc.

a cloak im looking in to is the ruana cloak following the videos on youtube from Iodo and Living Anachronism, very versatile, can be worn matchcoat style, which would mean quiver could easily be worn on top.....
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