Packs and Cloaks

A place for pics and tutorials on making Soft Kit (clothing and accessories like buckles and cloak pins).

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caedmon
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Packs and Cloaks

Post by caedmon »

Building a new ranger watch-cloak, and musing on how to make packs/quivers work with it. I've thought of some strategic slits in the sides & back. It makes me really understand how/why gardecorps evolved. Anyone have a solution?
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Peter Remling
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Peter Remling »

How about arm slits and and double mantle. The upper mantle has either drawn strings or buttons to allow it to be converted to a hood. Using the arm slits would allow for a backpack or haversack. Either your quiver would have to attach to the pack, be worn over the cloak separately or be a belt quiver.
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Worldwalker »

You could wear the pack under the cloak:
But in the dim dusk of a winter’s day there appeared suddenly among them a man, as it seemed, of great bulk and girth, cloaked and hooded in white; and he walked up to the fire without a word. And when men sprang up in fear, he laughed, and threw back his hood, and beneath his wide cloak he bore a great pack; and in the light of the fire Túrin looked again on the face of Beleg Cúthalion.
Quenta Silmarillion, Ch. 21
In the LOTR movies Legolas' cloak had a small hole in the back for his quiver strap to pass through. Perhaps you could do the same thing with your new watch cloak. If you have one, you could carry a snapsack in the same way, and thus take care of the pack issue.
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Le-Loup
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Le-Loup »

caedmon wrote:Building a new ranger watch-cloak, and musing on how to make packs/quivers work with it. I've thought of some strategic slits in the sides & back. It makes me really understand how/why gardecorps evolved. Anyone have a solution?
I would not think that you will bother walking in the rain or heavy snow. I carry my oilcloth separate from my blanket roll so that I can easily get to it & cover myself & my pack.

In the same way I would think the best thing to do is wear the cloak over the pack, but not over your quiver. If it is a back quiver simply wear the cloak to one side of the quiver. If you get caught in rain, you can take shelter & cover your quiver & yourself with the cloak. If the arrows stand too high for this action, then unbuckle the quiver & keep it dry beneath the cloak.
When in the field you need to keep things simple, try not to change what was once a common think to do.
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Elleth
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Elleth »

I strongly agree with a general mindset of "first look at what the real people actually did, they had to live in this stuff and they weren't dummies."
The problem in this context I think is that a lot of the archetypal Ranger equipage wasn't used historically, and often I suppose for the reasons we have trouble with it. :/

I don't have personal experience yet with more than long wool hoods, which are easy to manage. I think Greg simply folds his cloak out of the way and quiver/burden straps, and the gear on top keeps everything folded out of the way: which is probably in most cases what our ancestors would do with the same equipment in the same situation, absent inclement weather.

In harsher weather I do think putting the cloak outside makes some sense, but once wool is soaked through... ugh. ( I can actually imagine then a Ranger actually discarding his cloak if forced to face the enemy host in a true downstorm: better a risk of hypothermia after the fact than letting a heavy soaked cloak become a shroud in the moment of contest.)



edit - I have a wool poncho of about the same length on me as Andy's watch cloak. This morning while doing farm chores, I threw it on and wore my quiver over it (poor dog thought we were going on a trek and was so very sad we stopped at the barnyard! :( )

Anyhow, with a quiver worn on top of it, a hip-length poncho actually becomes better to work in: the strap keeps the front close to the body and out of the way. I imagine it would be no different with a watch cloak, at least if the front was fastened up. The only downside is the wool pressed close to one's body is going to become soaked / transfer that soaking somewhat faster.


I've an unfinished circle cut of wool around here that was destined to become a watch cloak eventually - I can add a quicky neck closure to it this weekend and experiment if you want the feedback before cutting something for real.
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Greg
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Greg »

*cracks knuckles*

Alright, biggest problem. Cloaks and back quivers never coexisted during history in the format that we've placed them in. If Robin Hood existed, his arrows would have been in a linen sheaf at his hip, or likely tucked bare into his belt. Travel and 'trek', as we practice--with this sort of gear--were not a part of daily life in any period.

As for the how...there's a lot I can say, and there's a lot that I can't.

I have, up to this point, found that wearing a half-circle or similar cloak requires a bit of set-up. Put the cloak on, draped around your shoulders, and then flip the leading edges back over your shoulders, folding it over itself. Put the attached hood on, and then put on your quiver, bedroll/tumpline, what-have-you over it. Now, put your hood back down so it rides on top, and you've got a cloak that's out of the way, and a hood that's accessible. In foul weather, the corners can be pulled forward, but the outside gear has to rely on itself (ie. tarp material, etc.) to defend against the elements. My latest cloak iteration, the modified half-circle, has one small buttonhole-like slit at dead center to allow my quiver's secondary strap to pass under the cloak and leave it free when my bedroll is off.

This has worked well for me for years. I have few real complaints about it.

...

I will not trek with this cloak, or this setup again.

*cliffhanger*
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Elleth »

gah!!! I hate cliffhangers!!!

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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Le-Loup »

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less travelled by,
And that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost.

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Lori
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Lori »

Can you unpack that thought.... I am curious what you are saying with these links. The second one does not seem to be historical, more like fantasy and film. Was there a particular picture that stood out as historically accurate?
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Kortoso »

Le Loup's picture reminds us that, yes, belt quivers were common in the middle ages.
The jupons look a little impractical for warfare, although if that's the way they did it...
Can anyone find an instance of shoulder quivers used in the middle ages?
Plus, I think we overstate the importance of cloaks in the middle ages. They were used by other garments were also used. The Vikings were known to wear a jacket that would be practical, at least for my range.
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Greg »

Nope. No shoulder quivers. That's mostly a north american thing.

Yes, there were other options for cloaks, but considering the context of our studies, cloaks are prevalent. That's part of what makes this so fun and challenging...making it work in the context of Tolkien's imagination.
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Elleth »

The jupons look a little impractical for warfare, although if that's the way they did it...
I suspect that's in a (upper class) hunting context, rather than a martial one. I don't know the image though.
Can anyone find an instance of shoulder quivers used in the middle ages?
This is the only one I recall offhand - one of the archers on the Bayeux Tapestry. That said, it looks like it's the same pattern of Norse/Norman waist quiver you posted recently, only worn about the shoulders.
bayeu-tapestry-quiver-on-back.png
bayeu-tapestry-quiver-on-back.png (165.75 KiB) Viewed 21656 times
Plus, I think we overstate the importance of cloaks in the middle ages.
Well yes... but this is Middle Earth. Cloaks and back quivers are de rigueur :)
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Greg »

That quiver in the tapestry looks like it was almost done by accident, given that the rest of them sport hip quivers. I'm thinking legs were already there, no space to put it, "Aww, heck...wrap it around the dude's shoulders." Can't really pull a bow with your shoulders cinched together like that. Fascinating, either way!
...this is Middle Earth. Cloaks and back quivers are de rigueur :)
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Elleth
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Elleth »

That quiver in the tapestry looks like it was almost done by accident, given that the rest of them sport hip quivers. I'm thinking legs were already there, no space to put it, "Aww, heck...wrap it around the dude's shoulders." Can't really pull a bow with your shoulders cinched together like that. Fascinating, either way!
I've seen speculation that it is a waist quiver, only hastily thrown on about the shoulders in a moment of alarm. I have a vague memory the last time I looked up this question there were perhaps one or two other examples, but can't find them now and they were absolutely swamped in the sources by arrow bags at the belt (more military contexts) or just a couple arrows through the belt (more hunting contexts) in period medieval European artwork.

On a whim, I skimmed through LOTR text, searching for "quiver" and "arrow" - nowhere that I could find does the professor mention where people were carrying their arrows, but there are the following descriptions:

Legolas -
" Legolas had a bow and a quiver, and at his belt a long white knife. " (FOTR)

Rangers of Ithilen-
"Four tall Men stood there. Two had spears in their hands with broad bright heads. Two had great bows, almost of their own height, and great quivers of long green-feathered arrows. All had swords at their sides, and were clad in green and brown of varied hues, as if the better to walk unseen in the glades of Ithilien. Green gauntlets covered their hands, and their faces were hooded and masked with green, except for their eyes, which were very keen and bright. " (TTT)


I read both of those as implying back quivers, per mid-20th c. fashion.
But I don't think it's a closed case.

That said... I'm not about to trade in my mental image now. If I wanted to do pure medieval recrudescence, that's where I'd be. This is more fun. :)
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Re: Packs and Cloaks

Post by Greg »

The thing that convinces me that the quiver was intended to be on the back is that Tolkien was alive and writing amidst the 20th. cen. thought that that's where quivers were carried [see: Errol Flynn's robin Hood]. The word quiver so rarely is even used when referring to real medieval methods of carrying; more often a sheaf, etc. Add to that that Legolas' knife is stated as being at his side in the same sentence as a quiver is mentioned, as if to separate it from the quiver. Again, in Ithilien, we have that same separation of the quiver and the swords at their sides.

I'm pretty confident that we're right.
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
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