Let's talk haversacks!

[Elleth]

I confess, I'm torn on haversacks.

One the one hand, haversacks seem to have been imported into Middle Earth by way of many of our 18th c. reenactor origins- even as the colonial folk themselves were dropping them for most everyone except military impressions.

So I have something of a natural itch to the things.

On the other hand, there are medieval pilgrim scrips for the carrying of necessities on the road.

Moreover, plain simple logic suggests a people in the woods a fair amount would tend to some fashion of foraging bag - a bushcrafter's bag for treasures found along the trail.

That is - a place to keep bits of tinder, makings of cordage, foraged wildfoods and such without getting dirt and vegetable debris smeared all over one's equipment.

For that matter, a place to keep a piece of wrapped game or smoked meat from a village resupply that might get the rest of one's gear greasy and / or nasty is also a handy thing.

So something in the "haversack" space makes logical sense. But do we have support for it in the writings? And what might it look like? I've a couple (mostly) colonial attempts, but they don't really look Middle Earth to my eye:

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(.. to be cont'd)

[Elleth]

(.. cont'd)

Perhaps incorporating more leather, as in these pieces:

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The shift from documentable "we know the Redcoats carried something like this" into a bit of reenactorism eases things to my eye. Remove the fringe, perhaps carve or burn a pattern into the leather to match the mileu and we start to get a nicer costume piece.

I'm still unsure about the materials however - fabric's not a cheap thing at Middle Earth tech levels: as far as we know there aren't any hordes of hobbit mill-girls churning out yards of tentage fabric every day. Even a smaller pouch of all leather can handle the job in a pinch*:

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For pure foraging, a basket not unlike a fisherman's creel might have seen use - hardly streamlined enough for a Ranger I think however.
That said, a quickly sewn piece of deerskin might be less bulky while still answering the same purpose - without being nearly the same work investment for what amounts to a such a short-working-life item as a haversack. (I seem to recall reading that the originals were disposed of after as little as a season of use: which makes sense given that they were used for the carriage of ooky things)



What are your thoughts?
Are haversacks / foraging bags appropriate at all in a Middle Earth context?

If so, what might they look like for different cultures, and how big might they be? What would they be made from?

Who would carry them? Would they have their own strap like a military haversack? Hang from the belt? Something else?

Would they be a regular part of worn gear, or only pulled out when occasion demanded, and washed and stowed otherwise?





* edit: I'm assuming a Ranger or wildman operating in the woodlands would have easier access to hide than fabric: the reverse could well be true for a settled hobbit or Gondorian quartermaster.
And of course, in any fabric-making culture worn out clothes could be recycled into quite a usable haversack / foraging bag once they became too worn to be worth repairing.

[Udwin]

Excellent idea for a conversation, Elleth! Of course, we might want to first summarize the age-old 'what's a haversack?' question.
Based on what I've picked up by hanging around 18th c. debates on the subject, it seems a haversack originates from a Euro military background and is meant to carry one's foodstuffs (wiktionary suggests they usually only have one strap--so slung under one's arm or back). A knapsack seems to have two shoulder straps and is worn squarely on the back. 'Possibles bags' have some overlap with 'shooting bag' and seem focused on feeding and maintaining one's muzzleloading firearm.

If you're looking at pouches to carry wild edibles or small game, there is a tradition of netted 'game bags' that you might look into. The ones I usually see are made of modern twine or similar, but they could be made with handmade cordage for a more rustic, Middle-earth-y look.

As far as text evidence for this sort of thing goes, I'm afraid there isn't much; unfortunately, the good Professor wasn't very concerned with describing small details of clothing or accouterments. However, there is some precedent: in Book 1, Chapter 12, we read how Strider retrieves leaves of Athelas“...from the pouch at his belt...”. In thinking of smallish pouches carried about one's waist, I am reminded of 'split pouches' popular among Great Lakes/Eastern Woodland Natives.

I actually just read an academic article that proposes the theory that these types of pouches originate in continental Spain! If the theory could be supported, that gives a (albeit early modern) European pedigree for such items.

Honestly, small pouches for carrying one's foragings are the kinds of thing that really don't survive well in the archeological record (this is why we have a romantic view of paleo societies based around 'Man the Hunter'--which really should be 'Woman the Gatherer'!).

[Udwin]

(If we're not limiting our definition of 'haversack' to something to carry foodstuffs, I have two items that I use for carrying my gear (my various hygiene, fire, sewing, cordage &c. bags) as well as my leather foodbag. The first is a cotton canvas 'New Invented Haversack' made from the pattern in Sketchbook'76, and the second is a Soviet-pattern 'meshok' knapsack (my old one was stiff cotton canvas; this is my new one in heavy linen. Much nicer texture).

[Elleth]

Very cool!

Ultimately, I think you're right that the main question is "what is a haversack?"
Are we particularly talking about a rations bag? Or a general purpose necessaries bag slung over the shoulder?
The 18th c. reenactorisms of the previous few decades have muddied the waters a bit, but I think both definitions are worth talking about. We just might have to disambiguate a bit.

Regarding the latter "general purpose" bag: I'm quite partial to the two-pockets-and-a-single-strap knapsack pattern used on the New Invented.. I don't think it meshes well with a quiver, but so long as that constraint is out of the way it's a terribly comfortable way of managing a modest load. I've got a mostly-finished Warner knapsack that is just waiting for me to add straps - and I think it will get the older single-strap carriage as on the New Invented. The overall form of both still has a mid-18th c. look to my eye - but that dovetails so nicely with PJ's take on the hobbits I can easily imagine some rambunctious Took (or Boffin! ) gallivanting down the road with such a thing.


Regarding slit pouches - very cool!
I have to date been using a variation on them (basically scaled down Market Wallets) as subload organizers - I find them a little handier for some things than simple drawstring pouches.

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I've not decided yet whether to eliminate them as I Middle-Earth-ize my old colonial woodsy tools. Not immediately, at any rate. I'm partial to them.

I have wondered about a medieval / Middle Earth variation on the same thing: say a tanned or even ornamented outer layer, a softer leather or even linen inner layer.. come to think of it, the construction of medieval men's belt pouches is not unlike that - just drop the fold below the belt line and rotate the opening into the horizontal. They're definitely close cousins.

A slit pouch as a foraging bag? I do think I like the idea: it's not got much capacity, but for a quick handful of tinder or convenient herbal found on the move it seems handy.
Clever. : )

[Ursus]

Here's the one I made for myself last year that has since become a permanent part of my pack and new carry set up. This is all leather and is loosely based on one I saw online. The smaller front pocket holds various items depending on if I do or don't have a waist pouch during the trek. I started using a haversack to carry the majority of my gear for several reasons. 1: Its highly impractical, bulky, and heavy to carry everything in a bedroll, it just doesn't work for the long distance treks that I do. 2: As with my longhunter set up I wanted to be able to access my food and other gear on the move without stopping and unrolling my bedroll . 3: I really want to distance myself from the whole Pete Jackson/Aragorn silhouette with the bedroll/quiver combo. This has led me to a complete revamp of my kit carry system which very comfortable, practical, and easy to remove(write up to come soon).

[Ursus]

Nice bags there Udwin! Really cool stuff about the split pouches, thanks for the link.

[Elleth]

Udwin's work is nice.

I'm curious about the meshok - so you just keep rolling the top over, and when you get to the chest-strap of the shoulder straps, that serves as a handle? Is that what I'm seeing?

Ursus - the look of yours is interesting. The wider leather around the edge, outside of the seam - the bag you have in your writeup in the Wiki does the same thing, does it not? Is there a particular utility to that practice (helping things lay flat?) - or is it pure style? I don't think I've seen that done before. Is it from a particular culture, or your invention?

[Udwin]

Why thank you! : ) The meshok is essentially a pillowcase with a drawstring at the open end and the long U strap at the other. Fill it up, cinch up the drawstring, and then make a 'lark's head' knot with the middle of the U strap, snug it around the 'neck' of the pack, and voila! Or, picture's worth a thousand words...

[Ursus]

Ursus - the look of yours is interesting. The wider leather around the edge, outside of the seam - the bag you have in your writeup in the Wiki does the same thing, does it not? Is there a particular utility to that practice (helping things lay flat?) - or is it pure style? I don't think I've seen that done before. Is it from a particular culture, or your invention?

Actually its just my poor photography skills. In the write up what you are seeing is the front flap of the bag. The original in the write up had a large front pocket attached. I didn't like the look of it as it felt to "clean" for lack of a better word. Below are some better images, one with the bag open for better reference.

[Manveruon]

Great discussion! Especially because I have been meaning to add a haversack of some kind to my kit for quite a while now.

For my part, I would be using my haversack primarily for food storage, but also for various and sundry other items that simply don't fit elsewhere. When I did my trek this past summer I realized my gear setup would be MUCH more effective if I could take most of the bulky items (which primarily consisted of food, but did include a few other things) out of my bedroll and place them in some kind of large-ish shoulder bag. As for carrying messy things, I would probably make a dedicated bag (perhaps from waxcloth or similar) and then simply carry that inside another bag - but then, I don't intend on carrying raw meats, or other especially squicky items on a trek any time soon, so your mileage may vary there.

In the end, I feel like a haversack/shoulder-bag of some kind is extremely practical, especially if you wan to shift your weight out of your bedroll and off of your belt. It also allows you to access a large quantity of items fairly quickly, should the need arise, which is a huge plus for me. I will probably be making one out of leather very soon, and I really like Ursus' idea of having a separate pouch on the outside that's accessible without opening the main flap, but I don't know if I'm going to incorporate it or not, simply because I'm not sure I like the aesthetic. Still, it's a cool innovation.

So yeah, long story short, I dig haversacks, and think they'er an extremely useful item for a ranger to carry.

[Elleth]

I like the rustic style of Ursus' bag, but I do see Mav's point about the aesthetic.

Dunedain material culture seems to me to at least leave open the possibility of an interesting parallel to the early American frontier. In both cases you have a culture with a stylistic heritage going back thousands of years, while at the same time being subject to the improvisational necessities of a wild land.

An American colonist of 1770 might carry a rifle with neo-classical acanthus leaf carvings, but also wear the deerskin moccasins of the Cherokee and a shaggy homespun linsey coat. Likewise, I can see a ranger of the Dunedain having a sword hilt ornamented in ancient styles Elendil himself would recognize, wear clothing not unlike the men of Bree, and have parts of his equippage hastily improvised from roughly-tanned hide in a manner even the Wild Men would use.

To the best of my knowledge we don't have solid evidence of a particular aesthetic, but "a jumble" certainly seems plausible.