Compasses in ME

Hard Kit is all other accoutrements that are not clothing, weapons or armour. This includes pots and tents, and flint & steel, and other things like that.

Moderators: caedmon, Greg

Post Reply
User avatar
Harper
Haeropada
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:11 pm

Compasses in ME

Post by Harper »

I cannot recall a direct reference to compasses in Tolkien's works.

However, I think there are indirect references. An example would be the "compass rose" which appears at the top of most of the maps.

The Numenoreans were known for their sailing abilities and their colonial expansion. Personally, I would equate their maritime technology to our Age of Exploration (or even beyond). I think that they certainly would have had celestial navigation instruments as well as some notion of latitude. Do you think that they would have had compasses? Sunstones? As their direct descendants (and recollecting that Elendil, et al. arrived on ships), is it reasonable to assume that this knowledge was retained? In addition lets remeber that Gondor had a formidable Narvy (at least at times). As a maritime power, is it reasonable to assume that such technology was used by them?

Then there are the Elves in the Grey Havens. Would the Dwarves (or Noldor) have found lodestones? Sunstones?

In real world history, there is evidence of compasses in use in Medieval England. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:
Alexander Neckam reported the use of a magnetic compass for the region of the English Channel in the texts De utensilibus and De naturis rerum,[48] written between 1187 and 1202, after he returned to England from France[49] and prior to entering the Augustinian abbey at Cirencester.[50] Robert Southey suggested that the Siete Partidas contained a reference from the 1250s to the needle being used for navigation.[51] In 1269 Petrus Peregrinus of Maricourt described a floating compass for astronomical purposes as well as a dry compass for seafaring, in his well-known Epistola de magnete.[48]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass

So what do you think. Would a Ranger of the North in the Third Age have had a pocket compass in his kit? He certainly would have had an extensive mental map and the ability to do some dead reckoning from the sun/stars. But what about a Hunter's-type brass compass used in conjunction with maps?

Please opine.
User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Elleth »

Hunh... that is an interesting question.

First... yes, I can certainly imagine Numenoreans had them - at least in some form. As to what survived?
Rubbing a needle on a lodestone isn't exactly the most difficult technology, though I could well imagine a source for magnetic ore might be hard to come by after the collapse of the Northern Kingdom.
Though yes, if anyone has it, it would be the dwarves.

I confess, I don't see brass compasses like colonial / civil war reenactors carry in a Ranger's kit: the design aesthetic is just so early-modern (Hobbits maybe?)
There are similar creations for mirrors though from the medieval era, so I suppose one could squint a bit and justify it:
medieval-hinged-mirror-time-lines-co-uk.jpg
medieval-hinged-mirror-time-lines-co-uk.jpg (51.53 KiB) Viewed 17152 times
http://www.time-lines.co.uk/medieval-hi ... 523-0.html

... absent an explicit mention though, I don't think I personally would go any father than a sunstone or magnetized needle floated on a vessel of water.

Then again... Bilbo has a clock on the mantlepiece. ME technology is weird. :)
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
Harper
Haeropada
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:11 pm

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Harper »

You are right about ME's technology being quirky. Part of its charm.

If Hobbits had clocks, I think that it is very likely that compasses were also around. Also, let's not forget the "marvelous" toys which were passed out at the party--I always got the impression that thy were "mechanical". I don't imagine that jewelers would have a problem making a simple case for a compass. We know that there was jewelry. So, I think the ability to make the "case" portion of a pocket compass was definitely there and obtainable.

Rangers, who secured the roads, would have had access to traders from various races and locales. Certainly, if available to Hobbits, such things could be obtained by Rangers in (or through) Bree.

But, if the aesthetic does not work for you..no problem.

Thanks for your insights.
User avatar
Taurinor
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:06 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Taurinor »

I think the question has to be broken into two parts, which is what your topic-starting post does to a certain extent.

1. Are compasses present in Middle-Earth?

2. If compasses are present, would Rangers use them?
Harper wrote:The Numenoreans were known for their sailing abilities and their colonial expansion. Personally, I would equate their maritime technology to our Age of Exploration (or even beyond). I think that they certainly would have had celestial navigation instruments as well as some notion of latitude. Do you think that they would have had compasses? Sunstones? As their direct descendants (and recollecting that Elendil, et al. arrived on ships), is it reasonable to assume that this knowledge was retained? In addition lets remeber that Gondor had a formidable Narvy (at least at times). As a maritime power, is it reasonable to assume that such technology was used by them?
Before the introduction of the magnetic compass to Europe, the Vikings were thought to have some navigational tools. The Uunartoq dial may have been used to determine latitude, and sunstones are said to have been used to navigate by sunlight on cloudy days in the Viking sagas. It's also thought that sunstones would have been effective even into the twilight hours. That, in combination with the long days of the summer raiding season at northern latitudes would have made them potentially very usable. Interestingly, a piece of Icelandic spar was found on the wreck of a late 16th century sailing vessel near other navigational instruments, and it has been suggested that it was used for navigation due to the possibility of magnetic interference from the large metal guns on board. This suggests that knowledge of the use of sunstones may have been retained by sailors for hundreds of years.

The compasses used during the 16th century aboard ships consisted of a large magnetized needle attached to the underside of a card, on which the compass rose was drawn. This supported by gimbals so the card would stay level, and all of this was attached inside a large wooden box that was attached to the deck in front of the helm. If the Numenoreans used this sort of magnetic compass, it would have to be greatly streamlined to be useful to a Ranger in the woods.
Harper wrote:If Hobbits had clocks, I think that it is very likely that compasses were also around. Also, let's not forget the "marvelous" toys which were passed out at the party--I always got the impression that thy were "mechanical". I don't imagine that jewelers would have a problem making a simple case for a compass. We know that there was jewelry. So, I think the ability to make the "case" portion of a pocket compass was definitely there and obtainable.
I've always been under the impression that the hobbits of the Shire have a level of technology that is comparable to 18th century, or maybe early 19th century. They have clocks, umbrellas, and pockets. This would suggest that they might have the technological level to make compasses, but they might not have had the need. The hobbits of the Shire don't seem to roam far, and "maps made in the Shire showed mostly white spaces beyond its borders" (FotR: Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past).
Harper wrote:An example would be the "compass rose" which appears at the top of most of the maps.
I don't know that we can take this as evidence for compasses in Middle-Earth. It would depend on whether Tolkien was just providing a map for the convenience of the reader, or if he was recreating an artifact of Middle-Earth. It gets pretty meta pretty quickly...
Elleth wrote:I confess, I don't see brass compasses like colonial / civil war reenactors carry in a Ranger's kit: the design aesthetic is just so early-modern (Hobbits maybe?)
If you're interested in a little different aesthetic, the Lewis and Clark compass has a slightly different look.

So, could there be compasses in Middle-Earth? Maybe! (Very helpful, right?) It certainly doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

Second question - If compasses are present, would Rangers use them?

Honestly, I feel like that is even more unclear. Aragorn is obviously the Ranger that we know the most about. He is described by Gandalf as "the greatest traveller and huntsman of this age of the world" (FotR: Chapter 2, A Shadow of the Past). In the Chetwood, he is described as leading the hobbits "confidently among the many crossing paths, although left to themselves they would soon have been at a loss. He was taking a wandering course with many turns and doublings, to put off any pursuit" (FotR: Capter 11, A Knife in the Dark). No mention of any navigational tool is made.

The Rangers are also thought to have supernatural abilities by the people of Bree. They "were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds" (FotR: Capter 9, At the Sign of the Prancing Pony). It's been suggested elsewhere on the forum that these abilities could be those of highly skilled woodsmen misunderstood. Navigating the wilderness without tools could play into that.

Now, it's possible that Aragorn has more knowledge of the geography of Middle-Earth than the "average" ranger (if there is such a thing). He was fostered in Rivendell, and "There are many maps in Elrond's house" (FotR: Chapter 3, The Ring Goes South). He may have a more complete mental map, and therefore may not need navigational aids where other rangers might.

Personally, a compass doesn't totally fit in with my mental image of a ranger, but that's just the idea of a ranger I have in my head. For safety reasons, I certainly don't think anyone would argue against carrying a compass, authentic or not.
- Ned Houndswood, Breelander
Richmond Fantasy-Inspired Hiking and Camping (on WordPress and Facebook)
User avatar
Udwin
Vendor
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:00 pm
Location: central Kain-tuc-kee
Contact:

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Udwin »

Based on their seafaring prowess, I figure the Numenoreans/early Gondorians had to have SOME kind of device to aid navigation, but what form they took I'm not sure.
I agree with T. that the idea of the Dunedain using compasses doesn't fit with my mental image of their skills (not that We shouldn't carry one (and know how to use it) for safety's sake), and that a brass-cased compass is far far too modern for ME purposes (really only hobbit level of tech, and they wouldn't have the need for one); however, what about this?

Here is a very old--yet simple--compass that has come down through my family (late 18th century I believe, very early 19th at the latest). It is 2.5" in diameter, less than an inch thick when closed, and fits one's hand very comfortably.
It is turned (chestnut?--grew in Shire at least) wood, with a printed paper dial and a (hard to see in photo) glass face that keeps the needle in place.
We know wood-turning lathes were used in late 3A Gondor (Bk4Ch5)
We know late 3A dwarves (UT Pt3Ch3) and hobbits (Bk6Ch2) were familiar with glass.
We can surmise that late 3A Dale was producing paper.
We know many cultures used iron (Numenor, Dwarves, Rohan, Isengard, Angmar, Mordor...).

If you were to remove the degrees around the outside, change the rose to something simpler/more primitive, and write the directions in one of Tolk's writing systems, I can easily see this in a ME traveler's pack.
Attachments
compass.jpg
compass.jpg (167.9 KiB) Viewed 17118 times
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
User avatar
Taurinor
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:06 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Taurinor »

Wow, that's lovely, Udwin! Thank you for sharing!
- Ned Houndswood, Breelander
Richmond Fantasy-Inspired Hiking and Camping (on WordPress and Facebook)
User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Elleth »

I think any of the Free Peoples were technically capable of making something along the lines of the brass case for a traveler's compass, I just don't think we have any evidence they did. And if they did, if the styling was at all similar to those sold today. (I vote "maybe but I don't think so" and "no" respectively).

The sticking point I think is the concept of a magnetized ferric needle floating on a point as a navigational aid: whether the case is wood or bronze matters far less I think. They coexisted in the real world, and I'm sure if the idea of a pocket compass exists at all in ME, both types would be in use.

Given that it's such a basic (and cheaply / easily produced) piece of gear, I would think if anyone had a compass it would be Aragorn - and we don't hear of him using one, even on a long journey far outside his home range. I know "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" ... but on reflection it's the way I'd bet.

.. which as Taurinor says, isn't reason to leave behind emergency tools.


edit: and yes Udwin, that's lovely! What a family treasure! :)
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
Harper
Haeropada
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:11 pm

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Harper »

I, too, have always thought that Hobbits had a 17th-18th century level of technology. Given that level of sophistication, I think they could have had compasses. However, I agree that Hobbits would have had very little use for them. Where did they go (except maybe Tooks)

I also agree that Rangers must have had extensive mental maps. I even mentioned it in my first post on this topic. Aragorn most of all.

Udwin, that is truly fine family heirloom. Do you have any idea what the original owner used it for? Was he military? While I specifically asked about a hunter's style brass compass, I actually had in mind pocket compasses in general. Yours would certainly fit the bill.

I have no real emotional investment in this compass issue. It was just a thought that I had and figured that this was the group to ask.

Allow me to stir the pot a little more...

We know that Aragorn, as Thorongil led a small squadron of Gondorian ships to attack Umbar in TA 2980. He no doubt was exposed to (and, given his nature, likely mastered) the Gondorian navigation system of the day.

In response to Taurinor's statement about the compass rose which appears on many of the maps in the books
I don't know that we can take this as evidence for compasses in Middle-Earth. It would depend on whether Tolkien was just providing a map for the convenience of the reader, or if he was recreating an artifact of Middle-Earth. It gets pretty meta pretty quickly...
I think that I can give some additional insight.

We know that Tolkien isn't putting compass points there only for the convenience of the reader. After all, some of the maps don't have them. But on the page just after Thorin's map (pg. 8 in the 50th Anniversary edition of The Hobbit by HMC), we are told:
On the Map the compass points are marked in runes, with East at the top, as is usual in dwarf-maps, and so read clockwise: E(ast), S(outh), W(est), N(orth).
(emphasis mine)

So the Dwarves (at least) commonly included a compass "rose" on their maps. Not a "direct" reference to compasses, but it certainly strengthens the "indirect" reference position that I made in the initial post.
Last edited by Harper on Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Taurinor
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:06 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Taurinor »

Harper wrote:
On the Map the compass points are marked in runes, with East at the top, as is usual in dwarf-maps, and so read clockwise: E(ast), S(outh), W(est), N(orth).
(emphasis mine)

So the Dwarves (at least) commonly included a compass "rose" on their maps. Not a "direct" a reference to compasses, but it certainly strengthens the "indirect" reference position that I made in the initial post.
I had forgotten about that reference! I wonder if that means that dwarves use East, instead of North, as the principle direction? Possibly based on sunrise?
- Ned Houndswood, Breelander
Richmond Fantasy-Inspired Hiking and Camping (on WordPress and Facebook)
User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Elleth »

Perhaps. I was also wondering about dwarves and compasses. On the one hand, they could be a lot more useful to them: no celestial navigation.

On the other... what if they're surrounded by iron deposits?
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
Kortoso
Haeropada
Posts: 822
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Contact:

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Kortoso »

It's an interesting coincidence that I am trying to learn how to see the Haidinger's Brush in the sky to determine light polarity and use it to navigate.

We know that the Vikings navigated to all of their lands without compasses, although they may have used a stone that polarized light.

So, as you can see, I am in the compass-less camp, at least for Numenorean Rangers.

Here is an expert at natural navigation, passing through the wilds of England; he reminds me of the way I believe Aragorn would guide his steps through the wild places:
There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go.
RikJohnson39
Wayfarer
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 9:35 pm
Location: Tucson, Az

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by RikJohnson39 »

Some good ideas but he makes a few mis-assumptions:

He puts too much reliance on the wind direction. I don't know about England but out here, the wind changes with the time-of-day and season and climate so just because the wind 'generally' blows from the SW during the summer does not mean that it always does that and the direction may change three times an hour out there. That really makes it rough setting a tent or a wind break.

Mosses generally like to grow on the north of a tree but if the canopy is dense or growing in the shade of a cliff, that moss will be all over the place. Out here, Barrel Cacti generally grow-&-point towards the south but I see a lot of them that are growing in different directions.

I'd like to know why the center of the tree is in the north. Light avoidance?
Is that a constant in other regions? What about different trees? I'd like to know more about this.

The Sun is generally in the south but you also need to know the date. in December, the sun rises at 117 degrees but in June the sun rises at 61 degrees (at 32 degrees north) so you have a 50 degree arc from the SE to the NE where the sun is. Noon is generally South but you need a stationary sundial or watch set to Solar Time to find that. Think of it like a triangle with one base angle at 61 degrees, another base angle at 117 degrees and the top point at 32 degrees above the horizon. The Sun is somewhere within that triangle. And if it is near mid-day, the thing is even more complicated.

Some of the ideas are good but they rely upon too much info that we do not possess. He could tell from a dead tree when it died? and he remembered which storm happened when that tree died? And he remembered the wind direction form that particular storm? I am not that good and never will be. But he ranges within a couple hundred miles of home while we range within thousands of miles. The entire British Isles including Ireland can fit inside Arizona with room all around. I traced it off a globe to test the thing.

My teachers told me to collect a hundred different kinds of info from moss to barrel cactus to sun position to ... then compare them and do a best guess.
All that must happen for Evil to triumph is for the Good People to stand by and do nothing!
User avatar
Mirimaran
Thangailhir
Posts: 2110
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:38 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Mirimaran »

Great points, Rik!

Ken
"Well, what are you waiting for? I am an old man, and have no time for your falter! Come at me, if you will, for I do not sing songs of dastards!"
User avatar
Kortoso
Haeropada
Posts: 822
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Contact:

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Kortoso »

Good points, Rik!

Tristan has been around the block, so to speak. So I'd assume he is already making the allowances that you speak of: e.g., he's familiar with the prevailing wind behavior in the area where he is trekking. I've got his book; it certainly opened my mind about navigation. Recommended!

I'm trying to learn how to tell the time by the moon: its place in the sky and its phase. It's a little complicated, and of course doesn't obey daylight savings time, etc. :P
There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go.
User avatar
Kortoso
Haeropada
Posts: 822
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Contact:

Re: Compasses in ME

Post by Kortoso »

N.B.: I didn't mean to side-track the compass discussion so.

It seems that the Olmecs of prehistoric Mexico were using lodestone compasses to orient their temples.
There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go.
Post Reply