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Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:13 am
by Iodo
Taurinor wrote:My goodness, you've been busy! That all looks lovely!
Thank you :P
Taurinor wrote:I played with the swag some (used it on my first overnight outing), and it's a solid system. I actually ended up wearing the bedroll horizontally across my shoulder blades to shift the weight a little bit higher, which was a little more comfortable for me (but the comfort of weight distribution is a very personal thing).

I was attracted to it for the same reason that it seems you were, that it plays nicely with a cloak! But then I found that I wasn't really wearing my cloak (really just a half-blanket) on the trail and that I liked the stability of a pack frame and now I'm looking into pack baskets... you know how it goes! :mrgreen: I didn't stop using it because of some sort of major flaw, though - just gear and preference changes.
cool, I totally missed that thread, thanks for the link, your right that kit evolves over time, sometimes incredibly quickly, I don't know if I'll stick with it for ever but given that I'll get maybe one chance to use it every year if I'm lucky it will probably do just fine, I'm getting a different (hopefully better) blanket and a shelter and ground cloth will add weight to the bedroll so I'll be interested to see how well it works loaded with more weight

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 3:53 pm
by BrianGrubbs
That is amazingly well done! So cool to see what you've done with the strap system, it's very well laid out, and matches the aesthetic of the rest of your kit. I like what you did with tapering the dilly bag to combat the bunching up of the thicker material. Likewise the reshaping of the base of the bag. It looks incredible, and comfortable. As a side note, I did not invent the slit in the bag, but for the life of me I can't find the source where I learned about it.

Good idea with adding the snapsack! That's on my list of things to add to my kit collection :lol:

Can't wait to see and hear more about this as you continue to use and develop it!

Brian

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 4:54 pm
by Iodo
BrianGrubbs wrote:That is amazingly well done! So cool to see what you've done with the strap system, it's very well laid out, and matches the aesthetic of the rest of your kit. I like what you did with tapering the dilly bag to combat the bunching up of the thicker material. Likewise the reshaping of the base of the bag. It looks incredible, and comfortable. As a side note, I did not invent the slit in the bag, but for the life of me I can't find the source where I learned about it.
Brian
Glad you like it :P I tried to find a reference for the slit in the bag and had no luck, that's why I wondered if you had invented it, I guess it will remain a mystery :lol:
BrianGrubbs wrote:Can't wait to see and hear more about this as you continue to use and develop it!
I've already added a loop to the base of the dilly bag, attaching it to my belt seems to work well to stop it from swinging, I haven't taken photo's of it yet but I will at some point

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 5:44 pm
by BrianGrubbs
Found it! I was looking in a book by Richard Graves, but it seems I was looking in the wrong place. This is from Bushcraft: The Ultimate Guide to Survival in the Wilderness:

"The two binding cords pass through the loops of the swag strap and are tied tightly about 6″ to 8″ [15 to 20 cm] from either end of the roll. The food, cooking utensils, and daily needs are put in the dilly bag, and the neck of this is tied right at the junction of the binding strap with the swag strap, or alternatively a series of cuts in the neck of the bag can be made and the binding cord passed through these so that the bag is tight to the roll. If this is done it is a good idea to make a cut down the side of the bag for about 12″ [30 cm] so that the contents can be taken out without removing the bag itself from the binding straps.

Definitely going to be putting a loop at the bottom of mine. Interested to see how you attached it to your belt, I will await the next series of photographs with some degree of anticipation (ok, a large degree :lol: )

Brian

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 5:47 pm
by BrianGrubbs
A good summary of this section of his book can be found here:

https://swagmanfever.wordpress.com/2014 ... scription/

Brian

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 7:11 am
by Iodo
Interesting :P thanks for finding it

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 9:51 am
by Iodo
BrianGrubbs wrote: Definitely going to be putting a loop at the bottom of mine. Interested to see how you attached it to your belt, I will await the next series of photographs with some degree of anticipation (ok, a large degree :lol: )

Brian
finally got around to it :lol:

Image

all I have done is attach a leather loop to the base of the dilly bag to use to tie onto a belt, it works best if it's exactly the right length required to reach my belt. Anchoring it does mean it can be made longer (without swinging around) and therefore filled higher so I've put some leather toggle fastenings of the slit to prevent things from falling out, I guess the disadvantage it that it's slower to take off and no longer works with a cloak

I think I still prefer it shorter but this is only because my tapered design means the longer it is the narrower the cloth over my shoulder becomes, making it feel more uncomfortable

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:14 am
by OParnoShoshoi
(let's see if I attached this properly)

I was looking at what to carry my things in and I recalled rucksacks in the movies, but it's been tricky finding good screenshots. If the attachment works, you can see that Bilbo and others have what are very clearly regular leather rucksacks. Though, like much of Hobbit wear, it does seem to clash with the technology level of the rest of the world in the TA, doesn't it?

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:02 am
by Elleth
. Though, like much of Hobbit wear, it does seem to clash with the technology level of the rest of the world in the TA, doesn't it?
On the one hand, you're right. The earliest reference I've seen for what we'd call a knapsack is quite late*.

On the other hand, Bilbo also has matches and a clock on his mantelpiece. The Shire is very much a thing all it's own. :mrgreen:

Regardless, I think we've got tons of descriptions - and drawings by the Professor's own hand - to indicate back-worn packs of some kind are known in Middle Earth, regardless of their place in our own history. I'd not personally take that as license to go full 20th century canvas and leather rucksack, but we all have our own mental image.

edit... actually, come to think of it. Do we ever see a reference to the strapping on - say - the packs the Dwarves are carrying into Mirkwood? We know they were bearing their baggage on their backs, but whether in (what we'd call knap/rucksacks), or packboards, or just bundles with a single hooked strap is as I recall ambiguous. I have a vague memory we talked about that like... five years ago now.

---

*John Rees has a wonderful series of papers on the subject on academia.edu, and he's found one letter from the early stages of the American Revolutionary War where one person is saying to another (effectively) - "they use this thing like a saddlebag, but it's got two straps that go over the shoulders!!" The implication in context being that even the early RevWar envelope-style knapsacks were strange new things to the observers.

Prior to this time, single-strapped backs over one or both shoulders appears to be the rule.

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:52 am
by Iodo
OParnoShoshoi wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:14 am I was looking at what to carry my things in and I recalled rucksacks in the movies, but it's been tricky finding good screenshots. If the attachment works, you can see that Bilbo and others have what are very clearly regular leather rucksacks

That pack does remind me of the pack Elleth made for me, you can see in this post: viewtopic.php?p=52356#p52356 it's a more basic, less very well off hobbit version of the same thing, I don't know about the aesthetic of rangers but it doesn't look at all out of place in middle earth

Elleth wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:02 am
. Though, like much of Hobbit wear, it does seem to clash with the technology level of the rest of the world in the TA, doesn't it?
On the one hand, you're right. The earliest reference I've seen for what we'd call a knapsack is quite late*.

On the other hand, Bilbo also has matches and a clock on his mantelpiece. The Shire is very much a thing all it's own. :mrgreen:

I have always seen it like this: Hobbits are both very secretive from the rest of middle earth (and have been for a long time) and fond of home comforts, this combination then leads to a little known about pocket of far more advanced technology, particularly in areas that improve living conditions and reduce the manual labour required for every day tasks

Elleth wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:02 am edit... actually, come to think of it. Do we ever see a reference to the strapping on - say - the packs the Dwarves are carrying into Mirkwood? We know they were bearing their baggage on their backs, but whether in (what we'd call knap/rucksacks), or packboards, or just bundles with a single hooked strap is as I recall ambiguous. I have a vague memory we talked about that like... five years ago now.

Yep, we did, it's here: viewtopic.php?p=34455#p34455

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:50 am
by Jack
OParnoShoshoi wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:14 am (let's see if I attached this properly)

I was looking at what to carry my things in and I recalled rucksacks in the movies, but it's been tricky finding good screenshots. If the attachment works, you can see that Bilbo and others have what are very clearly regular leather rucksacks. Though, like much of Hobbit wear, it does seem to clash with the technology level of the rest of the world in the TA, doesn't it?
...wait a second is that Seinfeld co-creator Larry David in the background? lol :mrgreen:

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:29 am
by Eofor
Iodo wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:52 am Yep, we did, it's here: viewtopic.php?p=34455#p34455
I couldn't see it mentioned in the thread but in the section of the hobbit where the dwarves are fetching instruments to play 'far over the misty mountains cold' there are a few descriptions of what the dwarves are carrying. Fili and Kili are both carrying 'bags of tools' and a spade and these bags also contain fiddles.

What does that sound like? sacks? packs?

It could all be nonsense as Dwalin and Balin are carrying viols as big as themselves and lord knows where they stashed those.

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:21 pm
by Elleth
Yeah... for "reenacting" purposes I write off most of the ahistoric stuff of the hobbits (and crazy capacious packs of the dwarves) as literary license and stick with Tudor-level technology. For just enjoying the story though, of course Bilbo has matches. How else is he going to light his pipe and read his mail? :mrgreen:

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:51 pm
by OParnoShoshoi
Elleth wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:21 pm Yeah... for "reenacting" purposes I write off most of the ahistoric stuff of the hobbits (and crazy capacious packs of the dwarves) as literary license and stick with Tudor-level technology. For just enjoying the story though, of course Bilbo has matches. How else is he going to light his pipe and read his mail? :mrgreen:
And that is sort of the catch isn't it? A large part ould be so only JRRT translating sack as rucksack, tinder as matches, etc.

Though I do like the idea of hobbits being weirdly advanced but only in ways that affect comfort.

Re: Many ways to carry stuff - Experimentation

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:52 am
by Iodo
OParnoShoshoi wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:51 pm
Elleth wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:21 pm Yeah... for "reenacting" purposes I write off most of the ahistoric stuff of the hobbits (and crazy capacious packs of the dwarves) as literary license and stick with Tudor-level technology. For just enjoying the story though, of course Bilbo has matches. How else is he going to light his pipe and read his mail? :mrgreen:
And that is sort of the catch isn't it? A large part ould be so only JRRT translating sack as rucksack, tinder as matches, etc.

Though I do like the idea of hobbits being weirdly advanced but only in ways that affect comfort.

I honestly think that there is too many of these "anachronisms" within hobbit life for this to be the case, personally I think it is actually how Tolkien imagined the Shire to be, even how the hobbits dress is "out of time" compared with the rest of Middle earth. I think he wanted the Shire to seem just a little magical and shrouded in mystery even to those who already live inside a magical world

This is my favourite quote when thinking about hobbit dress, aesthetic and technology:

J. R. R. Tolkien, letter 178 wrote: …no one would have said ‘The Shire is not far from North Oxford’. It is in fact more or less a Warwickshire village of about the period of the Diamond Jubilee…

The diamond jubilee that Tolkien would have been talking about would have been queen Victoria's in 1897, so I've always taken that to mean that anything Tolkien writes that hobbits have, that existed in the real world on or before 1897, he probably intended for them to have

but everyone will have they're own interpretations, it's all part of the fun :P