belt pouch

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Manveruon
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Re: belt pouch

Post by Manveruon »

So yes, as far as I can tell you are essentially correct. We have belt/girdle purse finds from Viking sites, and we have plenty of documentation of later medieval belt purses, but from about the 11th through the early 14th centuries, they just... didn’t seem to use them. Most high-fidelity-reenactment types I’ve talked to about it seem to agree that it was mostly because people just didn’t really have all that much “pocket trash” on them at the time, like we do, and only the wealthy really carried money on their persons (and even then, not at all times).
There IS a really cool find from Germany dated to about the mid 13th century that also corresponds to several miniature paintings from that period depicting a smallish half-circle belt pouch. The extant item is referred to as the “Runneberg pouch,” and there is FINALLY starting to be some decent information out there about it and its construction. I’ve whipped up a relatively okay facsimile of it, and I’m quite fond of the design. It functions much like a later period girdle purse. But otherwise, yes, generally it seems that during that period folks preferred to carry things in “pilgrim” style shoulder bags, or not at all.

Here’s the Runneberg pouch for reference, by the way:
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And a very nice reproduction:
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Maerondir Perianseron, also called “Mickel,” Halfling Friend - Ranger of the Misty Mountains
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Manveruon
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Re: belt pouch

Post by Manveruon »

And here’s a fantastic video all about interpreting and reconstructing the Runneberg purse:
https://youtu.be/Il8827RVlak
Maerondir Perianseron, also called “Mickel,” Halfling Friend - Ranger of the Misty Mountains
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Cimrandir
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Re: belt pouch

Post by Cimrandir »

Very cool Manv! I had never seen that pouch before but I like it!

When you mention that "we have belt/girdle purse finds from Viking sites", I assume you are referring to the draw-string bags? Those were the only ones I could find that were firmly identifiable as a pouch. As far as whether they were worn on the belt I think is still some matter of discussion. They may have worn it under the tunic as well?? I did see one fellow say that he had a certain way to pull it tight that it was forced into a more ladies coin purse shape. I do like the Birka style closure (which I believe you've used before?) and I plan on using that for my M.e. pouch. Just kinda stinks that it's so far East as my personal vision for M.e. is the West. I'm not sure where the Sutton Hood purse lid fits in but that site is so flipping rich it's hard to pull off anyway. On the other hand though, most of our knowledge comes from graves and who know what they didn't bury people with because it was too valuable to put in the ground?

When it comes down to it, what we do just isn't what they did back then. We got so much more stuff now that they did without in their daily lives. You don't need a pouch if your working in the field right next to your house. But yeah, what we do isn't history so pouches are still a go!

I laugh because I've had this image in my head of those ubiquitous two strap hanging pouches being used extensively in-period but apparently they took off because re-enactors wanted somewhere to stash their ciggies and phones!
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Elleth
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Re: belt pouch

Post by Elleth »

interesting - I'd never seen that before!
I'm gonna have to try one someday. :)

Regarding the Sutton Hoo purse: I've always taken it as evidence that belt pouches generally were a thing in that time/place, and the buried person simply had a particularly nice one. Much like for us rich people have cars, poor people have cars... they're just not the same class of car.

It's always possible that's not the case I suppose: I do seem to recall coming across a reference that the fancy enamel work we associate with the Anglo-Saxons because of Sutton Hoo was continental in origin (Merovingian? I fear I don't recall, and can't vouch for the accuracy of the claim in any case).

Anyhow, I think I'm of the school of thought that says "people carry stuff now, people carried stuff when the only stuff to carry was rocks and grass - people have always carried stuff" ... ergo I'm inclined to think *something* served the purpose of pockets/purses, even if we don't see it in the art/haven't yet found the remains.
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Cimrandir
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Re: belt pouch

Post by Cimrandir »

Ah, I feel bad now for hijacking Shadrack's thread about his new pouch.

That's a good point regarding the Sutton Hoo find.

When it comes down to it, pouches are written about in Tolkien. That's what matters for our purposes here. I was simply curious about historical examples to inform the design and use for inspiration and since there's not a whole lot I'm free to express a little creativity with mine.
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Shadrack
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Re: belt pouch

Post by Shadrack »

Thanks for the great feedback guys!
Elleth wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:41 pm It's the stitched-on top flap that gets my attention. :)

I think I started doing things that way after looking at too many 14th c. girdle purses and 18th c. shot pouches.

I don't know how "in period" it is for Eriador to stitch on the top flap rather that just make the back and flap one piece... but given the Loch Glashan bag also has a seam across the top, I imagine neither mode of construction would seem terribly odd for anyone from the neolithic to the modern day. :mrgreen:
I was debating this exact question when I was patterning out my design! In the end rather than combining the flap and rear panel into one piece, I instead combined the flap and the belt loop as seen below. I've never been terribly fond of just tacking a loop onto the back of a pouch. This just feels a bit more solid.
pouch rear.jpg
pouch rear.jpg (223.12 KiB) Viewed 3886 times
It is an interesting design challenge for sure though, one with many solutions.
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Elleth
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Re: belt pouch

Post by Elleth »

I figured that's how it went together - I like it! :mrgreen:
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Manveruon
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Re: belt pouch

Post by Manveruon »

Shadrack wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:09 pm Thanks for the great feedback guys!
Elleth wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:41 pm It's the stitched-on top flap that gets my attention. :)

I think I started doing things that way after looking at too many 14th c. girdle purses and 18th c. shot pouches.

I don't know how "in period" it is for Eriador to stitch on the top flap rather that just make the back and flap one piece... but given the Loch Glashan bag also has a seam across the top, I imagine neither mode of construction would seem terribly odd for anyone from the neolithic to the modern day. :mrgreen:
I was debating this exact question when I was patterning out my design! In the end rather than combining the flap and rear panel into one piece, I instead combined the flap and the belt loop as seen below. I've never been terribly fond of just tacking a loop onto the back of a pouch. This just feels a bit more solid.
pouch rear.jpg
It is an interesting design challenge for sure though, one with many solutions.

That’s fantastic! It’s actually exactly the way I had intended to construct mine, because it’s very similar to how Elleth did hers, but in the end I opted to add a separate belt loop because the leather I was using for the outer side of the top flap was really very thin, and I wanted something bit more robust for the belt loop. Even so, I definitely prefer the simplicity of this style to how I ended up doing mine.
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Cimrandir
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Re: belt pouch

Post by Cimrandir »

Okay, I should probably make a new thread for this but as a follow-up, here's a definitive belt pouch... from 1300-1100 BC!

Wizard Bag from Hvidegaard

DO-2330.jpg
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Hvidegaard_Overview.jpg
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https://translate.google.com/translate? ... p%3A%2F%2F

https://samlinger.natmus.dk/assetbrowse ... lection=DO

A reconstruction by Ankerstjerne Leathercraft on FB.

The zipper-like closure is interesting and seems impractical for ranging but it's nifty that the bit of belt survived as well! It doesn't look very deep or wide though.

It's so cool to see that a belt pouch is indeed a very old idea! Apologies again for derailing. I really do like your pouch, Shadrack!
Persona : Cimrandir - late 3rd Age Dunedain
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