A Case for Back Quivers

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Greg
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A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Greg »

Lots of recent discussion regarding quivers, arrows, and their uses (thanks for getting me going, Elleth!). I've been pondering this for some time, but I believe we don't necessarily have to just "assume" that Tolkien referred to back quivers, or just "decide" that's what we want to go with for aesthetic reasons alone. It's not concrete, but I believe I can make a case for them that will hold up to reasonable scrutiny.

Despite his personal admission that he did not visualize details in accouterments well, I believe there was purpose behind all of the professor's statements, and (as with the cloak-and-hood) an awful lot can be inferred of what was going on in his mind's eye by reading what he didn't say.
J.R.R. Tolkien, in The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter 3: The Ring Goes South wrote:Legolas had a bow and a quiver, and at his belt a long white knife.
Here we have a description of Legolas. It doesn't state what sort of quiver it is, or where it hangs persay, but immediately after the quiver is mentioned a long white knife is described...at his belt.
J.R.R. Tolkien, in The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, Chapter 4: Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit wrote:Two had great bows, almost of their own height, and great quivers of long green-feathered arrows. All had swords at their sides, and were clad in green and brown of varied hues, as if the better to walk unseen in the glades of Ithilien.
Here again, this time with men, we have an indirect reference to lean on. Immediately after the reference to quivers, swords are listed specifically with a location: at their sides.

Why describe swords being hung at their sides, and a white knife at Legolas' belt? These seem to be known places for swords and knives...when one thinks of a sword, it hangs from the belt in the mind of the general populous. In fact, it pretty much goes without saying. So why not give a location to the quiver? I believe this is because, in the professor's mind, it followed the same popular familiarity, and went without saying. In short, describing the locations of these blades served as a way to separate the two pieces, placing the quivers in the only logical configuration left: on the back.

This can't be taken as gospel, but there you have it...pretty much the only argument we'll ever have from the text that points in any specific direction. I get where those of you who also do historical work come from regarding the disapproval of back quivers in Western- and Proto-European settings, but in the text here, it is what it is. Well, close, anyway.






In addition, just for grins, I find it hard to imagine a quiver described as "great" on the Rangers in Ithilien being a hip quiver or arrow sock/bag...but that's just me.
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Eledhwen
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Eledhwen »

On the whole, I agree. I have no problem with back quivers in Tolkien.

As far as swords and knives being known as hanging at the belt...have you been to any LARPs lately? Huge numbers of people strap their sword(S) to their back. Since the movies, knives too. Hehehehehe

Probably wasn't the case back then. It is now though. One kind of has to specify these days. ;)

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Greg
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Greg »

Eledhwen wrote:Probably wasn't the case back then.
Yeah, the times, they are a-diff-a-rent. Before "Blade" and a few other choice films, my statement was a touch more accurate. *chuckle*
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Ursus »

Solid points. My dislike of back quivers isn't really born of living history as I don't reenact outside of the 18th century. Mine comes from them just not being terribly practical. I think many of us have built entire packs around a back quiver at some point in time, heck I can think of three before I quit them.

But if you are using strictly book references for this hobby then it seems pretty plain according to the text.
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Manveruon »

Yep, I happen to agree with both your inferences and your conclusions. I also just happen to like back quivers, for a number of reasons - not least of which because they have a romantic charm, but also because I have enough on my belt to begin with that a quiver would just over-complicated things. I've used a hip quiver, and a quiver on a baldric, and I just find them cumbersome, personally.
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Kortoso »

No, I wouldn't assume he meant that the quivers were on the backs of his characters just because he didn't specify. It may have been something as simple as: he didn't know and/or couldn't decide, and he felt it didn't matter that much to the story. As we have discovered, back quivers are rare historically.
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Elleth »

Personally, I agree with Greg - I find those passages about as definitive as one could hope from a man who paid little attention to the accoutrements of his characters. (the ", and" in the description of Legolas is what totally seals the deal for me grammatically). I have near-complete confidence - to the extent he had a mental image at all - the Professor intended back quivers for both Legolas and the Rangers of Ithilien.
I think it no stretch then to assume the same of the Rangers of Eriador.

Nevertheless, to channel Mr. Easton "context context context" - the choice of a wanderer in the rough brushy wild is not necessarily that of a soldier on a clear battlefield, nor that of a lord on a casual morning's hunt.
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Greg
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Greg »

Kortoso wrote:No, I wouldn't assume he meant that the quivers were on the backs of his characters just because he didn't specify. It may have been something as simple as: he didn't know and/or couldn't decide, and he felt it didn't matter that much to the story. As we have discovered, back quivers are rare historically.
I certainly can't tell you you're wrong. A lot of things like this he felt didn't matter much to the story (or he simply didn't visualize well enough to try). Still, I feel that a person in his era would interpret the word "Quiver" the way I have here, regardless of the context...the linen bags/socks and such just aren't referred to as quivers by-and-large. To each their own!
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Scarxik »

I know that lot of people have problem with back quivers from historical POW or just plain practical reasons... but when I first time try archery before I seen any of the lotr films or any modern historical films, I immediately put all my arrows on my back... I don't know why but that was my first logical place for my arrows... Thru the years I use lot of quivers made by miself or bought... I try hip quivers and back quivers even on the bow itself... and I find back quivers more practical and more natural for me 8)
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Melthrist »

Scarxik wrote:I know that lot of people have problem with back quivers from historical POW or just plain practical reasons... but when I first time try archery before I seen any of the lotr films or any modern historical films, I immediately put all my arrows on my back... I don't know why but that was my first logical place for my arrows... Thru the years I use lot of quivers made by miself or bought... I try hip quivers and back quivers even on the bow itself... and I find back quivers more practical and more natural for me 8)
Agreed. Back quivers are overall just the most practical thing for rangers (at least in my opinion) because they don't swing around like hip quivers have the tendency to do. Obviously some would disagree, but I think the combination of a back quiver and an arrow bag, as seen in the Weta designs for the Ithilien Rangers, is the best way to prevent your arrows falling out everywhere.
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Peter Remling »

Odd suggestion for those not too historic who like back quivers. If you make your own quiver make a double layer bottom and place magnets between the two layers. This will help keep your arrows in the quiver even when bending over, provided you use iron or steel heads.
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Elleth »

Hunh - that's an interesting idea! :)

FWIW, I have never ever had a problem with arrows falling out. Not once. Ever.

I think it's because:

- actually bending so one's head is beneath one's waist is really quite rare (bend at the knees)
- a proper quiver is a bit soft, and so conforms to the body enough that arrows are held in place.
- (more recently) - an arrow sock provides even more padding/bulk, keeping arrows in place.

I think arrows falling out is less an issue of where you wear your quiver than poor quiver design.
Big mouthed rigid slick quivers dump arrows. Pliable field quivers don't.

Personal opinion, YMMV, etc. :)
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Manveruon »

Personally, I've spilled my arrows all over the place more times than I care to admit, haha. But I have kind of bad knees, so I often bend at the waist instead, and my quiver is definitely a bit too large, so in principle, I agree with everything you just said, Elleth.
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Daerir »

I am no historian by any means so take what I say lightly but, if I'm not mistaken most quivers were used by archers in warfare. Archers would use ground quivers so they could shoot more than a dozen or two dozen arrows. I'm sure they also used hip quivers but at the same time archers more than likely didn't pursue at high speeds. Retreat maybe but hopefully by the time they have to fall back they are out of arrows and the enemy is nearly gone lol. When I see a back quiver I think of it as more tactical.

Focus Points
Back quivers don't sway and bounce like hip quivers.
Hip quivers also take up a lot of valuable belt space, I mean where is that heavy coin purse gonna hang... or your knives
Back quivers look cooler :P

Also! It isnt impossible to have a sword mounted on your back. Does it look cool for a sword to be on your back? Sure. Is it the most protective way of sheathing a sword, absolutely not. I know the one in the picture is quite modern looking when it comes to scabbards, but with some adjustments it could easily be made to be more period looking.
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Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Elleth »

duplicate. eek!
Last edited by Elleth on Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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