A Case for Back Quivers

A central place to talk about weapons and armour, as it relates to your kit. This is where you show it of or talk about making it. Discussing the relative merits of types of weapons goes in the WMA section.

Moderators: caedmon, Greg

User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Elleth »

Daerir wrote:I am no historian by any means so take what I say lightly but, if I'm not mistaken most quivers were used by archers in warfare. Archers would use ground quivers so they could shoot more than a dozen or two dozen arrows. I'm sure they also used hip quivers but at the same time archers more than likely didn't pursue at high speeds. Retreat maybe but hopefully by the time they have to fall back they are out of arrows and the enemy is nearly gone lol. When I see a back quiver I think of it as more tactical.
At least looking at artwork from the time, quivers are quite rare: arrow bags or no quiver at all is the norm, at least so far as contemporary illuminations show.

Now.... note all the qualifiers in "high medieval European context." :P

Later medieval period, looking at contemporary illuminations, we see arrows carried in two contexts:

A. hunting parties (typically high-born recreational hunting at that).
B. line military archers in a set-piece battle.

What do we NOT see in high medieval illuminations?

Guerilla-ish combatants enagaging in combat on patrols in the wilderness. i.e..... Rangers.
The only true quivers I recall in (post-Classical) art are those of the Bayeux tapestry, which are pretty universally represented as hip quivers (with one arguable case).

My PERSONAL opinion is that the arrow bags of the high medieval era are an artifact of their context: levied or professional soldiery in a setpiece mostly centrally supplied battle. I think it's perfectly possible to trek the wilderness for weeks at a time with a high medieval arrow bag: I simply don't think it's the ideal solution for that context. Because English yeomen weren't Dunedain Rangers, didn't have the same constraints, and had different ends in mind.

("Put as many arrows as possible into those 2000 charging Frenchmen in the next 90 seconds" is an entirely different challenge than "keep these 50 square miles clear of unpredictable, scattered orc patrols for the next month.")

I do think the semi-pliable leathern back quiver is a better solution than 14th c. arrowbags for the forest-dwelling guerrilla who'll be scouting more than shooting - and far better than a few arrows shoved through a belt. I'm not convinced it's the best solution.

... but it worked for 18th-19th c. Aboriginal Americans in a similar context, so.... it clearly is an adequate solution for the task.
:)
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
Kortoso
Haeropada
Posts: 822
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Contact:

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Kortoso »

Yes, it works (if there isn't a cloak involved).... I concur!

With regard to the period illustrations, of course history is written by the literate. A preserved tapestry will belong to the highborn and it will glorify their activities, so there's a bit of built-in bias there.

I wonder what the earliest illustrations of Robin Hood will show?
There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go.
User avatar
Daerir
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:15 am
Location: McVeytown, Pennsylvania

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Daerir »

Kortoso wrote:Yes, it works (if there isn't a cloak involved).... I concur!

I wonder what the earliest illustrations of Robin Hood will show?

Actually! I modified my cloak to have a small hole cut in the back so my quiver strap can slide through and sit outside my cloak. I also sewed a little cloth patch that acts as a "flap" to cover the hole if my quiver isnt on so you CAN wear back quivers with a cloak
An archer practices until he gets it right. A ranger practices until he never gets it wrong
~Halt, Ranger's Apprentice
User avatar
Taurinor
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:06 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Taurinor »

Daerir wrote:
Kortoso wrote:Yes, it works (if there isn't a cloak involved).... I concur!

I wonder what the earliest illustrations of Robin Hood will show?

Actually! I modified my cloak to have a small hole cut in the back so my quiver strap can slide through and sit outside my cloak. I also sewed a little cloth patch that acts as a "flap" to cover the hole if my quiver isnt on so you CAN wear back quivers with a cloak
From what I understand, that's how they made the cloaks and quivers work together for the movies. That might be why the idea always strikes me as a costume-y solution, but if it works for you, it works for you!
- Ned Houndswood, Breelander
Richmond Fantasy-Inspired Hiking and Camping (on WordPress and Facebook)
User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Elleth »

Kortoso wrote:Yes, it works (if there isn't a cloak involved).... I concur!

With regard to the period illustrations, of course history is written by the literate. A preserved tapestry will belong to the highborn and it will glorify their activities, so there's a bit of built-in bias there.

I wonder what the earliest illustrations of Robin Hood will show?
I would like to see those illustrations! :)

There's certainly bias in what gets recorded, but given the amount of levied archers using arrow bags I think we can be fairly confident of what existed in the real medieval Britain, especially given extant relics like the Mary Rose arrow spacer. Absence of evidence is not of course evidence of absence, but I think if anyone was commonly wearing what we'd call quivers there would be some obvious sign in the record - just as we have for other mundanities of life like belts, boots, pouches, knives, etc.

I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, of course. Not that I can't keep using my quiver for Middle earth regardless. :)
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
Taurinor
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:06 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Taurinor »

Elleth wrote:
Kortoso wrote:Yes, it works (if there isn't a cloak involved).... I concur!

With regard to the period illustrations, of course history is written by the literate. A preserved tapestry will belong to the highborn and it will glorify their activities, so there's a bit of built-in bias there.

I wonder what the earliest illustrations of Robin Hood will show?
I would like to see those illustrations! :)

There's certainly bias in what gets recorded, but given the amount of levied archers using arrow bags I think we can be fairly confident of what existed in the real medieval Britain, especially given extant relics like the Mary Rose arrow spacer. Absence of evidence is not of course evidence of absence, but I think if anyone was commonly wearing what we'd call quivers there would be some obvious sign in the record - just as we have for other mundanities of life like belts, boots, pouches, knives, etc.

I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, of course. Not that I can't keep using my quiver for Middle earth regardless. :)
From what I have seen (not that I have looked terribly hard), arrows through the belt seems to be the most common for depictions of hunters, including in Chaucer's description of the knight's yeoman, who "A sheef of pecok arwes, bright and kene; Under his belt he bar ful thriftily". Larsdatter's Material Culture Database has a few depictions of belt quivers in Western European manuscripts, but the only British one that I saw in a brief look-through (which appears to be on a saddle, not a belt) was an illustration from the Morgan Apocalypse (MS M.0524, fol. 02r):

Image

The manuscript was created/published in London, ca.1255. However, it appears that the illustration from the Morgan Apocalypse was copied from one in a text from France (BNF Fr. 403, fol. 7v), ca. 1240-1250. That's not terribly surprising, though, considering King Henry III was also Duke of Aquitaine - cultural exchange (to put it politely) is to be expected.

I also found a quiver mentioned in an inquisition of the manor of Barrow on Soar in Charnwood Forest from 1273. A few of the renters paid in hunting equipment - 20 barbed arrows, worth 10d; a sheaf of 12 arrows, 6d; and 1 quiver and 13 arrows, worth 18d (page 157). Since arrows appear to be worth about 1/2d, the quiver mentioned must be worth 10-11d, which would make it a very expensive piece of equipment.

So, in short, what Elleth said. Quivers were around, but they seem to have been rare and expensive. Interestingly, I haven't seen evidence of arrow bags being used before the 15th century (even though they are used frequently by 14th century reenactors). Again, as Elleth said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, though.

Not that any of that really has any bearing on Middle-Earth reenacting - I just like to research :mrgreen:
- Ned Houndswood, Breelander
Richmond Fantasy-Inspired Hiking and Camping (on WordPress and Facebook)
User avatar
Peter Remling
Athel Dunedain
Posts: 3735
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:20 am

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Peter Remling »

nice bit of research, very interesting. Thanks for posting this
User avatar
Greg
Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
Posts: 4496
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Eriador; Central Indiana

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Greg »

Kortoso wrote:Yes, it works (if there isn't a cloak involved)....
That all depends on what you want the cloak to do for you! Someone interested in cloak use might give my (shameless but humble self-promotion) article in a previous edition of Edge of the Wild a read, on the design and uses of the bocksten cloak, no slits needed, for what it is worth.
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Elleth »

I also found a quiver mentioned in an inquisition of the manor of Barrow on Soar in Charnwood Forest from 1273. A few of the renters paid in hunting equipment - 20 barbed arrows, worth 10d; a sheaf of 12 arrows, 6d; and 1 quiver and 13 arrows, worth 18d (page 157). Since arrows appear to be worth about 1/2d, the quiver mentioned must be worth 10-11d, which would make it a very expensive piece of equipment.
Now THAT is fascinating, wow! Gosh I wish there were more details there. I imagine "renters paying in hunting equipment" implies the end user was a lord? What a fascinating line of research: I'd never seen those saddle quivers before in a western medieval Euro context! Logical they'd exist of course... but hunh. Cool!

Regarding holes through cloaks for strapping: I rather suspect we in the modern reenactment / costuming world worry far more about such things that real Rangers would. I suspect they'd just fold their cloak back if necessary and call it good.
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
Greg
Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
Posts: 4496
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Eriador; Central Indiana

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Greg »

Elleth wrote:I suspect they'd just fold their cloak back if necessary and call it good.
...and it is!
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
Scarxik
Wanderer
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:20 pm
Location: Slovakia

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Scarxik »

i willwrite it here because I dont want to start a new thread...

After I make my last quiver with bad straps like I said I try it put it on my hips and surprise surprise its feel realy good..

Drawing from it was smooth and so on... so I’m curenly playing with the idea of hip quiver... but I realy dont know if its the good idea but cople of bonus points.

I don’t need to build my gear arround the quiver bedrools backpacks and I can continue but all of you have an idea doesnt realy work well with the backquiver. From my experience for some hikings with a bow I allways end up with this: quiver steyed home and I only run with the arrow sock. Same goes with the cloack... if my cloack push bedroll little more down its not a big deal but if cloack push my quiver down Its a huge disadvantege...

So likeim saying hip quiver in this can be solution but how this will fit in the ranger gear....so my question is what kind of hip quiver I should make...

I think most of you seen second hobbit movie when thorin and company was captured with legolas and elven rangers. They had hip quivers on their backs I like that solution for the most part.

But I realy dont know how this will work ... first of all arrow bouncing this will be the huge pain to reduce. I can use leather slots for arrows but this will work only with bodkins and field tips...how to prevent hunting arrows from faling off the quiver?

Any advice I have a leather laying arround and some time and realy good ideas for the decoration for the quiver but this quiver must be realy practical :)

And again question will this fit in the theme of rangers? :)

Editadded some pics
Attachments
87308AE8-591E-4497-AF21-F961677A0422.jpeg
87308AE8-591E-4497-AF21-F961677A0422.jpeg (185.18 KiB) Viewed 16570 times
D5A019F9-D6DF-4F76-92CB-29E722259D08.jpeg
D5A019F9-D6DF-4F76-92CB-29E722259D08.jpeg (56.34 KiB) Viewed 16570 times
C54372B7-6127-404B-90E7-B41E41AAE76E.jpeg
C54372B7-6127-404B-90E7-B41E41AAE76E.jpeg (119.13 KiB) Viewed 16570 times
“Home is behind, the world ahead, and there are many paths to tread through shadows to the edge of night,
until the stars are all alight.” JRR Tolkien
User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Elleth »

IF you care about fidelity to the text, I continue to think the back quiver is strongly implied by what passages we have, at least for Legolas and the Rangers of Ithilien. There's sufficient ambiguity though I wouldn't fault someone sticking to the (apparently more historically common) waist quiver.

That said, I don't like the WETA Mirkwood quiver at all - all those pokey ends and it still manages to leave the shafts largely exposed. It's the apparently rigid body that really turns me off though - it looks like the arrows will just rattle around and rattle out the second the patrol hits a jog. Sure you could ameliorate that by packing it with wool or something, but.... why?

As a campaign quiver it's even worse: it looks pretty darn full with a half dozen arrows in there. Maybe you could stuff a dozen in there, but definitely not the two dozen of a medieval arrow bag.

I do think one could take a design cue or two from the WETA prop and end up with a lovely and practical waist quiver of more original design... but I can't say I think highly of the prop as it stands. (Sadly I think that's the case of a lot of WETA's Hobbit work, compared to their work on the LOTR trilogy)
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Elleth »

Oh.. two more thoughts.

First, after asking a similar question last year, I've come to agree there really seems to be golden mean of pliability for woodland quivers. Too soft and there's no protection at all against the inevitable bump and scrape and slide - too thick and you have a rigid tube that needs to be stuffed tight so as not to rattle and dump arrows. I think the wisdom I received of somewhere in the 6-8 oz range was perfect.

Secondly, the more time I spend in the text, the less inclined I am to borrow elements from one ME culture to another, at least in the late 3rd Age. Even the Free Peoples don't seem to have anything like the "multicultural" ethos of the modern era, and while they trade seem little inclined to borrow culturally from each other to any great degree.

All of which is to say I think a man of the Dunedain might have a token or two from the elves of Imladris, given that close connection. Perhaps some purchased Dwarven steel or tinkery from peddlers on the Great East Road. But even if he were personally inclined towards wearing the kit of a foreign people from way over the Misty Mountains, he'd not want the attention it would get him passing through more insular areas like the Breelands.

Which again isn't to say "don't do it" - just that in our hobby it's too easy to treat all of Middle Earth as a buffet, and pick pieces of kit because they're cool and make up a justification later - as opposed to attempting to emulate what a "real" person in Middle Earth would do, think, and carry given their their own culture and time.

Goodness knows I've been guilty. :(


edit - all that said - abolutely do what you like. We all do this 'cause it's a dorky fun hobby. There's no museum staff counting our stitches. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Elleth on Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
Greg
Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
Posts: 4496
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Eriador; Central Indiana

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Greg »

I agree with everything Ellet said, but I’ll add this: that film quiver is way too shallow. The arrows will, I guarantee it, get stuck on anyth8ng and everything. Functionally, this is my chief argument for a well-suspended back quiver.
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
Scarxik
Wanderer
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:20 pm
Location: Slovakia

Re: A Case for Back Quivers

Post by Scarxik »

Looks like a write it all wrong :)

Main reason I post a pictures from the second movie is a position of the quiver. I just look at the second and thirt movie and I undrestand that the elven quiver from hobbit movie are garbage. First off all weta try to use wood elements in mirkwood elves gear and if you look closely the quiver look kinda wooden. Same goes to army quivers and yes you are right six arrows not more and if you look closely they hold the quiver while moving and thats not good at all.

But I like the shape of the elven ranger quiver and how its sit on the back because I use my quuver that way and I must say its more comfortable and more natural for me.

Im toying with the idea of making it but make it compleately funcional first will be huge problem and as you can see I start planing allready :D
16978290-8ADD-49C5-B8B3-1E92512DDEEE.jpeg
16978290-8ADD-49C5-B8B3-1E92512DDEEE.jpeg (99.47 KiB) Viewed 16537 times
@elleth you are right about cherry picking... this is what cross my mind imidietly after I start to thinking about it.

I need to rethink this from the start all over again.

thanks for your words guy its been realy helpfull :)
“Home is behind, the world ahead, and there are many paths to tread through shadows to the edge of night,
until the stars are all alight.” JRR Tolkien
Post Reply