Yet another sword practicality thread

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Eric C
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Yet another sword practicality thread

Post by Eric C »

Okay, so after stalling as long as I can, this next year I am going to take the plunge into actual sword making. (No, I'm not taking orders on any at this time. :mrgreen: ) Anyway, I am planning to make blades for each of the members of my family. Each one will have its own flare and will be part of a matching set of blades for each family member - themed for that particular member of the family. Each sword will have a blade length of no more than 26" and quite possibly shorter for use in the briars and brambles of NC forests.

SO, I am looking at the design of Ruinferil's blades first. Hers are more Elvish themed in nature. We looked up Hadhafang, Arwen's sword. Ru wasn't overly fond of the lines of that blade. However, she did like the looks of Thranduil's sword. Of course I'm not going to simply copy those blades, but if we decide on a similar design, we will be doing something quite different with them.

Anyway, this thread could go on for a while since I will be bouncing ideas and their practicality off of you, my fellow rangers. Ru's is simply the first one I'm trying to nail down. I actually have ideas for two of the remaining three blades but we will see how each one progresses.

Now, Has anyone handled either of the two swords I mentioned above? Are they unwieldy? totally useless? Or are they a dream to handle, practically use themselves? Or do you simply hate the designs that PJ used in the movies altogether and thing I should scrap it for some other design? Or do you think I've lost my mind altogether now? Okay, that was just a random question asked... for no particular reason... Just wondering. :lol: Questions, comments and suggestions are - of course - welcome and encouraged.
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Elleth
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Re: Yet another sword practicality thread

Post by Elleth »

From an aesthetic point of view I'm not al all partial to the WETA elven "butterknife" swords - at least for Middle-earth. I wish they'd kept them more to the mold of Glamdring.

From a practical point of view - I don't think handling any of the replicas will teach you anything, as the official ones were all made to just to look pretty on a wall. For what it's worth a friend I knew back around '03 when the films were just out had a hadhafang, and it was hideous to actually handle. (The legolas knives were surprisingly nice, if too obviously stamped out of sheet steel).

That said, I recall about that time a number of people online were experimenting with fantasy sabres as custom commissions. I assume with enough work and experience one could make something look mostly like the film swords and still work.
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Re: Yet another sword practicality thread

Post by Eric C »

I PERSONALLY hated what they did with Orcrist.
Elleth wrote:
From a practical point of view - I don't think handling any of the replicas will teach you anything, as the official ones were all made to just to look pretty on a wall. For what it's worth a friend I knew back around '03 when the films were just out had a hadhafang, and it was hideous to actually handle. (The legolas knives were surprisingly nice, if too obviously stamped out of sheet steel).
I wondered how the replicas would handle since they really aren't meant for usage, just wall décor. I think of Elvish items to include their weapons (those things they themselves use, not those things they may trade) as looking as though they grew from nature - mimicking natural things. How do I capture that in a blade? Hmmm.... (Stroking beard thoughtfully.)
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Re: Yet another sword practicality thread

Post by Elleth »

I wondered how the replicas would handle since they really aren't meant for usage, just wall décor.
... like the overgrown stamped butterknives they are. :/
I think of Elvish items to include their weapons (those things they themselves use, not those things they may trade) as looking as though they grew from nature - mimicking natural things. How do I capture that in a blade? Hmmm.... (Stroking beard thoughtfully.)
I think "as if they grew from nature" is a fantastic foundation principle to work from, but think the most common failure mode for elven designs in general is going too gimicky. The tooth handle of WETA Orcrist is a *perfect* example of that - also this saber from Christian Fletcher -
merf-elven-blades-christian-fletcher-saber.jpg
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The execution is absolutely exquisite - but the decision to render the guard as too-literally rendered mallorn leaves works to cheapen the whole I think.
(I suspect that was a customer request, as Mr. Fletcher's eye tends to be top notch)

If one likes the general feel of WETA single-edge elven blades, this setup from a French(?) reenactor has always struck me as a very nice execution of the concept: I don't think I've ever seen a picture of the blade itself, but the composition is lovely. I love the scabbard detailing particularly. Note also the grip. The WETA Hadhafang (or at least the reproductions) has a smooth roundish handle that gives very poor purchase. The carved grip here looks like it'd be much easier to keep a hold of -
merf-elven-blades-quiver-and-blade.jpg
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As to "growing from nature" I think if you've a good hand for pattern welding, there's a lot of potential there. Likewise a bit of subtle carving. Cedarlore's pieces have a deep mysticism to them that's entrancing, though I think in emotional flavor they can run a bit dark.
merf-elven-blades-cedarlore-telpenar.jpg
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Is she planning an elven persona? I assume she wants a sword proper, not a long knife?
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Re: Yet another sword practicality thread

Post by Taurinor »

Eric C wrote:SO, I am looking at the design of Ruinferil's blades first. Hers are more Elvish themed in nature. We looked up Hadhafang, Arwen's sword. Ru wasn't overly fond of the lines of that blade. However, she did like the looks of Thranduil's sword. Of course I'm not going to simply copy those blades, but if we decide on a similar design, we will be doing something quite different with them.
I looked up Thranduil's sword, and the general shape of the blade reminded me a little bit of Hanwei's Dark Sentinel, which, despite the melodramatic name, I've only read good things about, including this review. Obviously there are some big differences, and the Dark Sentinel goes pretty hard in a katana-ish direction with the handle, but it seems to demonstrate that the modified Swiss sabre-type blade can be quite effective. I haven't handled one personally, though, and I also don't know how things would have to change to bring the blade length down to where you're looking for it.

Really, I don't know enough about blade geometry for my opinion to be worth much, though :mrgreen:
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Elwindil
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Re: Yet another sword practicality thread

Post by Elwindil »

perhaps you could draw some inspiration for your swords from here, http://www.fableblades.com/ his blades in many cases do have that organic look that you're going for, so I think they might give you the ideas you're looking for.
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Re: Yet another sword practicality thread

Post by Iodo »

I know very little about swords in general, hope to change that at some point :P just some thoughts:
Both the swords from WETA don't have much of a handguard, and when wooden sword fighting with my brother a good cross guard is defiantly useful, its probably the saim with real swords :lol: When I read the book I imagined both the swords to be straight, and orc/goblin blades were, I think, discribed as curved. whereas WETA portray a lot of the elvish blades as curved. I guess it depends if she is after a book or film accurate kit.
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Re: Yet another sword practicality thread

Post by Elleth »

Iodo -
I have a vague memory from the "making of" bits off the DVDs that the WETA in house team (maybe Falconer?) grabbed the job of designing elven blades from Peter Lyon. Mr. Lyon was (is) a long-time smith, reenactor, and fighter himself, hence his designs (Glamdring, Narsil, "the Strider Sword") have a look of usability and deep authenticity. The WETA in-house swords.... less so. Pity, since the costuming and set design was amazing.

Eilwindil - thank you! I knew was forgetting someone!

I did find a picture of that "quiver blade" unsheathed digging through Christophe Gattuso's Tuatha d'Imladris site. From what I can tell the blade's a little disappointing, given the wonderful work on the hilt:
merf-Christope-Gattuso-Tuatha-d-Imladris-elven-blade.jpg
merf-Christope-Gattuso-Tuatha-d-Imladris-elven-blade.jpg (134.33 KiB) Viewed 13957 times
Anyhow, I think if one has their heart set on going down the WETA single-edged road, the best route forward would probably be getting a pretty ripply folded steel katana blade and smoothing it down into something more saber-y, then adding a simple hilt.

I'll poke around some more.
Is she thinking Imladris/Rivendell elves? Or another group?
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Re: Yet another sword practicality thread

Post by Eric C »

Great answers and great links! As for what elvish folk influence the forging of the blade, I guess I have to understand where Angarth got some of his training/influence as a smith and decide who would have influenced Ruinferil to begin with. The influence she received on her first adventure would have been Dwarvish. That could throw a wrench in the cogs. More to think about and to bring to her attention.
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