Page 1 of 2

Morgul Blade.

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:44 am
by Eric C
Mmkay, here we go. I finished one of my very overdue commissions today and I want to start work on a long-term project that I've played around with in my mind for a while. I want to try my hand at creating what I see in my own mind when I think of some of the weapons in LOTR.

About the first blade that comes to mind is the Morgul blade. As is usually the case, I believe the Professor left the design of this blade mostly to our imagination. I don't have my books in front of me right now, but I recall there were runes in the black speech on the hilts. Other than that, I don't remember any other description. As for the movie blade, I think they did a good job, but the guard always looked upside-down to me.

So, what say you, Rangers? Do you have any insights on the Morgul blade that I have overlooked? What are your ideas about these evil weapons of the Dark Lord Sauron?

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:53 am
by Peter Remling
Being that the Nine are armed with hand and a half swords, I think the movie version's blade is a little narrow. Something along a Cinquedea blade size. Yeah I hated the inverted guard too.

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:38 am
by Udwin
"And more deadly to Frodo was this!' He stooped again and lifted up a long thin knife. There was a cold gleam in it. As Strider raised it they saw that near the end its edge was notched and the point was broken off. " LR I:12, Flight to the Ford

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:24 am
by Peter Remling
Udwin wrote:
"And more deadly to Frodo was this!' He stooped again and lifted up a long thin knife. There was a cold gleam in it. As Strider raised it they saw that near the end its edge was notched and the point was broken off. " LR I:12, Flight to the Ford
Ok you got me. Practically thinking, it should be wider but there it is.

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:01 am
by Eric C
In the reference above, it says that the edge was notched and the tip broken. Two thoughts come to mind.
1) Is the edge notched because of old battle damage?

2) Is the edge notched as a design feature to ensure that the tip would break off in the Nasgul's prey?

I don't believe that the Morgul blade is meant to see much combat. I would think it is a blade that is used exactly as we see it on Weathertop. It is a "finishing blade." It would seem to me that the notched edge is a design feature to seal the victim's fate.

As a smith, that could present some serious heat treat issues. Such a notch would likely create a stress riser and crack in heat treat. There is a way to try to avoid it by rounding the notch so there are no sharp angles.

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:49 am
by Harper
I get more of a Coustille vibe here. The blade would have to be long to accomodate the size of a Numenorean.

While it is not explicitly stated in the text, I too think that the tip is "meant" to break off into the victim.

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:25 pm
by Iodo
Eric C wrote: Is the edge notched as a design feature to ensure that the tip would break off in the Nasgul's prey?
That's something I'd never thought of, I guess I always imagined it to be a kind of magic, a bit more like in the movie rather than a mechanical feature

I don't know if it's WETA's influence (it's been a while since I read the books) but I always pictured it as a blackened blade, or grey, certainly not polished. I don't know if there's any historic truth in it but I figured that to poison a blade, the blade in question would have to have a rough surface finish so the poison could stick? assuming the poison in question is a liquid in the traditional sense, not some kind of evil magic in the metal
Eric C wrote: I would think it is a blade that is used exactly as we see it on Weathertop. It is a "finishing blade."
Agreed, I'm imagining a long dagger carried as a side-arm

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:58 pm
by Darnokthemage
It also has to be considered if they are made in Minas Morgul for throwaway use, or are ancient blades that just happened to shatter.

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:29 pm
by Iodo
Darnokthemage wrote:It also has to be considered if they are made in Minas Morgul for throwaway use, or are ancient blades that just happened to shatter.
and yet if they shattered that easily, they may not have become ancient?

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:55 pm
by Manveruon
Tolkien described the blade as sort of “melting” rather than shattering, so I always imagined it was some kind of enchantment designed to prevent the victim or their allies from retrieving the blade and somehow using it to develop an antidote or counter-spell.

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:55 pm
by Eric C
Iodo wrote:
I don't know if it's WETA's influence (it's been a while since I read the books) but I always pictured it as a blackened blade, or grey, certainly not polished. I don't know if there's any historic truth in it but I figured that to poison a blade, the blade in question would have to have a rough surface finish so the poison could stick? assuming the poison in question is a liquid in the traditional sense, not some kind of evil magic in the metal
Eric C wrote: I would think it is a blade that is used exactly as we see it on Weathertop. It is a "finishing blade."
Agreed, I'm imagining a long dagger carried as a side-arm
I would think the blade would have a patina to it since it is most likely very old. But if magical, that may be invalid.
Manveruon wrote:Tolkien described the blade as sort of “melting” rather than shattering, so I always imagined it was some kind of enchantment designed to prevent the victim or their allies from retrieving the blade and somehow using it to develop an antidote or counter-spell.
Good point, and something to be considered.

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:24 pm
by Peter Remling
Were the blades corrupted when their masters were or were the blades made for them after they were corrupted ? It could make a difference in their construction ! For instance a blade made prior would have been a blade made by normal means. It may have been given magical properties but at it's core a high quality forged blade. If it was made for the Nine after they were corrupted they could have been formed not forged. Imagine a blade formed from the essence of malice or decay, coalesced in a tangible form.

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:03 pm
by Eric C
Peter Remling wrote:Were the blades corrupted when their masters were or were the blades made for them after they were corrupted ? It could make a difference in their construction ! For instance a blade made prior would have been a blade made by normal means. It may have been given magical properties but at it's core a high quality forged blade. If it was made for the Nine after they were corrupted they could have been formed not forged. Imagine a blade formed from the essence of malice or decay, coalesced in a tangible form.

THAT is a very good line of thought! If forged before, their original usage would have even been noble. Perhaps even a healing property? I know, a healing sharp pointy object. But Middle Earth is quite magical. Anyway, after the Nine fell, their purpose would have changed completely.

Edit: The Witch King to one of his soldiers before the fall: Hold still! Ima stab you with this healing blade! It'll make you feel better!

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:11 pm
by Iodo
Eric C wrote:Hold still! Ima stab you with this healing blade! It'll make you feel better!
thanks for the offer but, I think I'll take my chances... :P LOL

seriously though, that would be quite an interesting magical artifact

Re: Morgul Blade.

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:52 pm
by Eric C
Iodo wrote:
Eric C wrote:Hold still! Ima stab you with this healing blade! It'll make you feel better!
thanks for the offer but, I think I'll take my chances... :P LOL

:lol: :lol: