REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!)

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Elleth
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REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!)

Post by Elleth »

While I can't say I've been exactly planning on adding a byrnie to my toybox, I can't deny the fascination of the stuff. Fabric that's metal - how cool is that?!

Thinking I might one day purchase some, I idly started googling around, and quickly ran into­ tons of options. My childhood mental picture of maille was formed by seeing backwoods SCAdians in butted chain shirts made from fencing wire: my brain is still having trouble trying to accept the look of the real thing! : )

Anyhow, since the descriptions on the websites aren't the best, I thought I'd order a swatch of each of the most historically plausible pieces I could find at a reasonable price to see what was out there.

Although they aren’t a perfect match for historical maille, here's what I ordered:

Riveted maille from Get Dressed for Battle
1. Round Ring, Dome Riveted
2. Flat Ring, Dome Riveted
3. Flat Ring, Wedge Riveted
4. "Roman" 6mm Internal Diameter

In addition, for a stab at Elven "mithril" I ordered a quarter-foot each of small-diameter welded maille in stainless and titanium from The Ring Lord
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Now let's go over each in turn.

I've extrapolated the weight of each "swatch" to 15 square feet, figuring that was approximately the size of a men's shirt: a front and back panel each around 2’ x 3’, and sleeves about 1’ x 1.5’

I’m sure those dimensions aren’t perfectly accurate, and the swatches themselves are tricky to measure dimensions on: but at least the relative values should still give an approximate comparison between each type of maille.

I'd love to be able to give “effectiveness” test data on these, but the truth of the matter is I don't think I can give really meaningful results from these tiny samples. YouTube is full of folks "proving" this weapon or that armor by varying the test conditions, and I don't think I could do any better with what I have on hand.

So while I could wrap a ham hock here in some linen and armor, and give 'em each a smack with a beater machete or stick ‘em with a target arrow: I don't know as I'd be able to prove much that isn’t done better elsewhere.

So I’ll start just with impressions for now, but please let me know if you’d get a lot of value out of my doing something to them.
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Elleth »

1. Round Ring, Dome Riveted GDFB: ULF-RRR-SQ
area at maximum expansion: 9.5” x 7” ÷ 144 = .4618 sq. ft.
weight: 13 â…› oz.
oz/sq. foot: 28.42
weight for 15 sq. ft. shirt: 26.64 lbs.
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First impressions: this feels old. It wants to talk of Beowulf and Sigurd, of Viking ships and Saxon fyrds. While I might like the rings to be a skosh smaller or the wire to be a hair thicker,they’re still in the ballpark of historical Norse maille, and this choice is already the heaviest of them all.

The one significant issue I think is that the dome rivets are frequently far too long for the rings:
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Those long rivets will occasionally catch on other links - and if I've heard right, occasionally pull out. These links would greatly benefit from a few nights in front of a movie with rivet pliers to crunch everything down nice and snug - plus a bag of spare rivets for the inevitable lost pieces, I’m sure.

If I were a hobbyist reenactor who might be doing Iron Age Celt one weekend, 14th century archer the next, and Middle Earth orc hunts in between: this is definitely the option I’d choose. It’s a close enough match to early-medieval maille I think that it’s a defensible choice for a rich early-period Viking or a poor late-period man-at-arms, and is perfect for Rohirrim. I could easily imagine the maille turned out by Breelander armourer shops was not that different either. :)

Love it!
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Elleth »

2. Flat Ring, Dome Riveted GDFB: ULF-FRR-SQ
area at maximum expansion: 9” x 6.75” ÷ 144 = .4219 sq. ft.
weight: 11 ⅜ oz.
oz/sq. foot: 26.961
weight for 15 sq. ft. shirt: 25.38 lbs
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First impressions: I think this one was aiming at the high medieval period, and judging from original pictures doesn’t quite hit the mark. The more pictures of the old stuff I see though, the closer it looks.

Compare to this 15th c. German hauberk:
02-B-original-chain-maille-flat-ring-dome-rivet-German-15thc-from-pintrest.jpg
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As varied as European medieval maille was ( see this amazing pintrest thread ) - I wouldn’t be surprised if you pointed me to a museum picture and said “no see - there WAS some armor that looked just like this floating around in AD 1340 “

Even so I’m not particularly fond of this type. It feels neither fish-nor-fowl to me. It lacks the “time of legends” feel of the round wire rings, and the smooth efficient “armor-fabric” nature of the wedge riveted flat rings.

That said, a few hours with rivet pliers solving the “too-high-rivets” problem would drastically help this selection.
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Last edited by Elleth on Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Elleth »

3. Flat Ring, Wedge Riveted GDFB: M/ULF-FRW-SQ
area at maximum expansion: 9.25” x 6.75” ÷ 144 = .4336 sq ft.
weight: 9 ½ oz.
oz/sq. foot: 21.759
weight for 15 sq. ft. shirt: 20.40 lbs
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First impressions: if your mental image of chainmail was formed by WETA’s LOTR, this is probably what you’ll like most. These steel rings are of thinner stock and slightly wider diameter than the cut plastic ones of the film, but the mail itself looks to have a similar “hand” to it for lack of a better word. The rivets are present, but aren’t as pronounced as any of the other options. The weave also feels solid and yet isn’t that heavy comparatively. If you told me today I had to go face an orc, while wearing a shirt made of any of the pieces reviewed here: this is without question the one I’d pick. (Or more likely, this type of wedged rings mixed with solid rings, also sold by GDFB but not reviewed here)
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That said, from what I can tell looking at originals on that pintrest thread, this stuff is closest in appearance to late medieval armor, and I can imagine it might start to feel a bit too modern if one is invested in the Dark Ages aesthetic of literary Middle Earth.
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Elleth »

4. "Roman" 6mm Internal Diameter GDFB: ULF-RM-SQ
area at maximum expansion: 9” x 7.25” ÷ 144 = .4531 sq. ft.
weight: 10 ⅝ oz.
oz/sq. foot: 23.450 oz / sq ft
weight for 15 sq. ft. shirt: 21.98 lbs
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First impressions: I confess, I was a little disappointed when I first looked at this one. I had visions of old Arthedainian maille passed down through the generations: finer stuff than turned out in the armorer shops of Bree these fallen days. My very first impression was that the “too long rivet” problem of the dome-riveted types is even more noticeable with the smaller links, and some of the solid links have a decidedly “washer” look to modern eyes.
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The more time I spend with it though, the more I’ve warmed to it.

I’m sure some time and a pair of rivet pliers would fix the rivet issue. As to the squarish-corners of the punched rings, I suspect some that is simply comparing new production stamped rings with those turned out centuries ago and worn by who knows how many people before ending up in museum collections. I could imagine the “polish in a barrel of sand” trick would smooth down the the corners - as would simple wear, eventually.

For the family armor of a Dunedain household - assuming I wasn’t going with welded “mithril” - this is probably still the one I’d choose. I’d just expect it to take some work getting to the point it felt “real.”

The GDFB site says the lighter gauge wire makes this type of maille lighter, but from weighing the samples - not by much. And the flat wedge riveted - which I don’t doubt is stronger - is lighter still. I'm also not convinced it's as strong as the others: but like I said, I don't believe this sample is enough to meaningfully test what a complete shirt would provide for a living person.
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Elleth »

5. Welded 4 in 1 Chainmail 24g 3/32'' - Titanium (F-24332-TI)
area at maximum expansion: 15.5” x 2” ÷ 144 = .2153 sq. feet
weight: 1 ⅜ oz.
oz/sq. foot: 6.386 oz
weight for 15 sq. ft. shirt: 5.99 lbs

Impressions: this stuff is LIGHT! I can easily imagine a shirt of it would just disappear: you could likely completely forget you had it on. The rings though are SO thin: I'd certainly trust it against a slash with a pocket knife: I'm not at all convinced it would turn a spear or fast heavy arrow. I don't know as the sample I have is big enough for a meaningful test, but now I'm somewhat curious.

It's also quite dark in color: not at all a silvery "mithril" appearance: though I imagine it might be possible to polish it somehow.
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6. Welded 4 in 1 Chainmail 24g 3/32'' - Stainless Steel (F-24332-SS)
area at maximum expansion: 2” x 16” ÷ 144 = .2222 sq. feet
weight: 2 ¾ oz.
oz/sq. foot: 12.376 oz/sq ft.
weight for 15 sq. ft. shirt: 11.6 lbs

Impressions: Pretty much the same as the titanium. It's a brighter color of course, and while still light it's noticeably heavier in the hand. I think wearing it all day would be only a scarce bother, though I don't think it would disappear quite so completely.
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As you can see, the construction is virtually identical. They only differ in color, and - of course - weight:
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Elleth »

Conclusions:

If I was wandering the wildlands of Eriador?

The tiny-ring welded stuff in either metal would be a lovely bit of extra insurance, though I don't know if I'd trust either for much without meaningful testing - were it easily shorn, I’d hate to have those tiny rings lost in a wound!

Assuming it was reasonably sound though, as feather-light as the titanium is, I imagine I'd throw it on any time I ventured into those woods - couldn't hurt, might help.

The weight difference between the tiny stainless and tiny titanium rings really doesn't add up to much on paper, though I suspect over twenty miles you'd start to notice it. In a perfect world, I'd love to choose the titanium and call it "mithril" - but here on earth, I don't have the extra two thousand dollars to throw at the fantasy in a world of mortgages and feed bills. For our games, a $200 stainless shirt is functionally identical for a tenth the price.

All that said - there's just something extra comforting about the sheer mass of the heavier maille. If one was expecting to borrow trouble, I suspect the extra weight would be worth it.

Of those available "human" riveted mild steel options? Before seeing any of them, I was expecting the "Roman" 6mm to look the most wearable, and the "flat ring wedge riveted" to be the most sturdy.

Handling them in real life has largely confirmed that expectation, though I like the round-wire dome riveted far more than I expected, and the flat ring dome riveted far less than I expected.


“TLDR! Shut up and tell me which one I want!”

It depends -

“I’m an a LARP and elven chain exists and is appropriate for my character:” - stainless welded. No question. Unless you’re very rich and bored enough to do a lot of polishing: then titanium welded.

“I want REAL armor for knife-wielding scaries in the alley” - A better neighborhood. :mrgreen:
But if you insist - Wedge Riveted Flat Ring. Probably mixed solid / wedge riveted.

“I want reenactor stuff that will pull double duty for Middle Earth and lots of medieval eras”
- Dome riveted round ring, rivet pliers, and some spare rivets.

“I want reenactor stuff for Middle Earth only:” -
Gondorian: Any. I’d lean Wedge Riveted Flat if your mental image of Middle Earth is more WETA/High Middle Ages, Round/Dome if it’s more Dark Ages.

Rohirrim: Round / Dome.

Dunedain: Any. I’d lean “Roman/6mm” (for older “relic” armor) or Round/Dome (for modern Breelander make) If (when?) I ever purchase maille, a brief shirt of the Roman/6mm is probably the way I’d go.

Elvish: Of these: welded stainless or Roman. But welded stainless construction with links closer to the 6mm internal diameter of the “Roman” would be best, if you could find it.

Dwarvish: Either of the flat ring types seem to me to fit well, though both are little on the thin side. I’d say probably flat/wedge riveted.



That’s it!

Any particular questions / comparison picture requests / recommended tests you have, just post and I’ll try to help. :)
Last edited by Elleth on Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Udwin »

Fascinating and thorough breakdown as usual, Elleth! Great writeup.
My only experience with maille has been spending 3 months of highschool and then a few of Uni making 2 butted maille shirts (13.6mm and then 10mm ID) out of...yep, you guessed it, 14 gauge fence wire. I'm not a SCAdian, but I'll never deny being all kinds of backwoods. ;-) (I did give mine a dunk in vinegar to take off the zinc, so they at least have some character!)

Your comments about the hypothetical Bree-land armourer have got me thinking. The town of Bree itself is described as "a large village" and that it "had some hundred stone houses of the Big Folk". I wonder if it would really be developed/big (and if there was demand) enough to have a dedicated armour-shop? I imagined the dwarves who traveled the East Road just made their own armour in the Blue Mtns or Erebor (post 2941). Aside from them, it doesn't seem like there would be enough folks in Eriador who would need armour besides the Rangers. I wonder if the Rangers made their own armour--some Dunedain who couldn't 'range' but stayed in the Angle riveting rings for those who could? Or as hereditary as they are, was armour just passed down from father to son? I dunno; I suppose it's also possible they contracted with the dwarves for armour...
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Elleth »

Udwin wrote:Your comments about the hypothetical Bree-land armourer have got me thinking. The town of Bree itself is described as "a large village" and that it "had some hundred stone houses of the Big Folk". I wonder if it would really be developed/big (and if there was demand) enough to have a dedicated armour-shop?
Hunh - you may have caught me in a PJ-ism! : )

My memory is that Bree is described as at a crossroads of trading routes, albeit ones fallen into disuse. And that although a small by modern standards, something of the "metropolis" of that backwater part of the world.

If such is true, I'd expect some minor trade in armoring - nothing like the Steward's armouries in Minas Tirith of course - more on the order of a family shop or two. Though I suppose if they're so sheltered by the Dunedain as not to feel a threat at all, it may be that what armoring is done is managed more as a sideline of a regular smithy.

I still can't help but think though that if not the hobbits, at least the men of Bree have a fyrd or militia or something similar, however little exercise it may have gotten. Which implies in turn someone is making and maintaining their equipment. Yes?
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Udwin »

Definitely. I'm sure the Bree-landers had some sort of militia--even the complacent Shire of the late Third Age still retained the 'hobbitry-at-arms' organized under the Thain!--but I imagine it was a very peasant-y sort of force - spears, bows, quilted linen or felted garments perhaps.
Perhaps it's my predilection for seeing M-E through a more primitive lens, but I just don't see armour playing much of a part in Bree's economy at the time of the War. Honestly I don't imagine Bree having much of an economy at all--aside from the Inn, and a handful of craftspeople--butcher, baker, chandler, farrier, woodturner, potter, &c.--being instead much more geared towards an agrarian subsistence existence. (It was probably a much different story before TA 1975, 1300, or 860, when Arnor or one of its splinter 'little kingdoms' were still functioning).
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Taurinor »

Return of the King, Homeward Bound wrote:‘And now they’re gone for robbers and live outside, hiding in the woods beyond Archet, and out in the wilds north-away. It’s like a bit of the bad old times tales tell of, I say. It isn’t safe on the road and nobody goes far, and folk lock up early. We have to keep watchers all round the fence and put a lot of men on the gates at nights.’

‘Well, no one troubled us,’ said Pippin, ‘and we came along slowly, and kept no watch. We thought we’d left all trouble behind us.’

‘Ah, that you haven’t, Master, more’s the pity,’ said Butterbur. ‘But it’s no wonder they left you alone. They wouldn’t go for armed folk, with swords and helmets and shields and all. Make them think twice, that would. And I must say it put me aback a bit when I saw you.’

Then the hobbits suddenly realized that people had looked at them with amazement not out of surprise at their return so much as in wonder at their gear. They themselves had become so used to warfare and to riding in well-arrayed companies that they had quite forgotten that the bright mail peeping from under their cloaks, and the helms of Gondor and the Mark, and the fair devices on their shields, would seem outlandish in their own country.
I think the above passage would suggest that armor isn't much used in Bree at all, and there may not even be an organized militia - from the way Butterbur says it, it seems like watchers and gate-guards are a fairly recent occurrence.

Additionally, Butterbur and the gatekeeper are armed with a club and a "great" cudgel, respectively. Not even a spear for the gatekeeper! In a society where it seems like the pinnacle of personal armaments are big sticks, there wouldn't be much place for maille.
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Udwin »

Excellent point. (I had just reread that passage myself but didn't read between the lines!) I love this low-key description of traffic between the Brandywine and Bree from the 1960 Hobbit.
"But beyond the Bridge the road was still good, and there were wide lands looking wholesome enough. They met or came up with a number of folk on lawful business: dwarves for the most part going east or west with packs on their backs. Some belonged to Thorin’s people of the western mountains, and they saluted him with a low bow; some were of poorer sort, pedlars(sic) of iron-ware, tinkers, or road-menders. There were a few Men, farmers mostly, ambling along on large fat horses; and several hobbits on foot. They stared at Thorin’s company, but gave them no more than a grin and a nod.” (791-92)
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Elleth »

Hunh.. Well I stand corrected.

... And yet there's a gate. And a wall. That's seemingly worth putting a guard on.

I suppose I'll just have to chalk that to "impressions from the English countryside that seem out of place in the broader world's context."

And clearly its time for a reread. :)
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Kortoso »

An excellent view of the maille that can be had in these days! Kudos!

A couple of thoughts about maille:
1. I sincerely doubt that the weight of maille is really a factor in absorbing damage. Not that I have more experience facing down real Uruk-Hai than any of our other assembled Rangers. But it's a flexible protection.
2. A dear departed friend in Old Blighty ran an experiment (as others have doubtless) with padded gambesons under maille. Apparently this "underarmor" would add substantially to the maille's protective qualities.
Evan a light gambeson also helps keep the metal from becoming a radiator. Otherwise hot is too hot and cold is too (deadly) cold.
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Re: REVIEW: GDFB Riveted Maille types compared (and Mithril!

Post by Ringulf »

In my research I came to understand that one of the primary purposes of maile was that it did not need to be made by an out and out "Armorsmith".
That it could be turned and fastened by an average smith and that many times his wife and children would serve as a laboring force to link the rings and fashion the garment. This was a large part of what made it preferable to other armor types. Thus not only could most warriors get maille (if they could afford it) but they could also mend and service it themselves while on campaign.
The cost and availability differs as we progress through the Dark ages to the late middle ages, but even from the classical periods we see it being used as a stepping stone from leather to solid/segmented plate as with the Lorica Hamata to the segmentata. And as a supplimental or secondary armor for those areas left exposed or needing flexability, like the armpits and joints as well as areas of the neck or trunk. Using it as a skirt or mantle was like layering tile on a roof so as to keep a blow moving or sliding down and not getting stuck.
If a society such as the dark age Norse could feild this type of armor, then I am of the opinion that guards of a town or errant worriors could aquire it.
The Dwarves are also a large part of the equation in my mind, as you do have them passing east and west and even north and south if you look at there migration patterns. Some may have settled here and there and become valuable members of small communities. The Ereborean Refugees wandered for many years in Eraidor and were said to have taken employment werever they could among other cultures. That makes me think that even those with modest skills and equipment could earn there keep as they wondered.
Ringulf's mission within the Shire is somwhat predicated on the fact that he is a well rounded craftsman, useful in many ways, but not particularly a master in anything. It makes his cirquitus rovings around the Shire very much as the Early American Tinkers or even cirquit Preachers or Judges. By the time he gets back around to you, you may have a bunch of things he can fix or make from metal, leather or wood.
Though a dwarf may not be an insider in a Hobbit population, they are bit more accepted and unobtrusive than the big folk, west of Bree :mrgreen:
I am Ringulf the Dwarven Woodsman, I craft leather, wood, metal, and clay,
I throw axes, seaxes, and pointy sticks, And I fire my bow through the day.
Come be my ally, lift up your mead! We'll search out our foes and the Eagles we'll feed! :mrgreen:
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