Armor...etc.

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Greg
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Armor...etc.

Post by Greg »

It's obvious that Chain maille, while useful, isn't practical for a ranger. It's noisy, beyond heavy, and if you wear it, you're gonna have a bad time.

However, if engaged with an armored opponent and it's down to swords, all they have to do is land a single well-placed blow to anywhere on your (a Ranger's) torso, and you're gonna have a bad time.

Peter Jackson's interpretation displays the Ithillien rangers wearing leather jerkins, as well as Faramir in a stiff leather Cuirass. It seems to make sense to me, but not in every situation.

Dunedain rangers were, as we've noted, above the poverty level. But it would make the most sense for them to make their greatest financial investment in their swords, bows, spears, and, potentially, horses. Conveniently enough, that's exactly what we present-day rangers find ourselves investing the most in as well.

Armor such as Faramir's cuirass might not be reasonable to most of us due to hindrances it might put on our maneuverability. But a leather jerkin more akin to those within his company might very well be of use. There still comes up the issue of comfort in the weather. A leather outer garment would be of GREAT help in colder weather, as it would hold our warmer, insulating layers (shirts, etc.) tight to our chests, allowing our body heat to remain trapped in. However, in warmer weather, such a garment could easily cause heat exhaustion.

What are your thoughts on armoring for a ranger? I am of the opinion that a quality set of bracers are a necessity, but what about the rest?

It occurred to me today that a kidney belt might be a viable option for a ranger, as it would not hinder mobility OR get in the way of a bowstring, yet would protect the more vital parts of the body that aren't naturally covered by a sword at guard, etc. Thoughts?

Commence discussion.
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hesinraca
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Post by hesinraca »

Studded leather, brigandine vest, coat of plates, banded armour, plate/leather combinations.

I don't have any proof of any of these being referenced in Middle Earth, but as a ranger in a heavy combat situation you're going to want to get the most armour with the least resitrctions (as opposed to a knight who just wants to tank his way in).

If I we're going to just pick and choose and make a culmination of pieces to combine into one full set, I'd be glad for a studden coat of plates with a solar plex steel plate, a short gorget, kidney belt, vambraces and greaves of leather with metal bands or plates, and possibly some sort of belt-harnessed theigh guards. Potentially substitute the coat of plates with a curiass.


Lorica Segmata
http://www.evenlodestudio.com/images/ar ... own_01.jpg\


curiass
http://www.artisanarmours.co.uk/fromcuir.jpg
http://www.realmcollections.com/images/ ... R_2489.jpg

vambraces
http://www.armchair-armoury.co.uk/graph ... BRACES.jpg

greaves
http://www.schmitthenner.com/images/Blk ... reaves.jpg

coat of plates
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/im ... r/2110.JPG
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Post by Peter Remling »

Maille by itself isn't that noisey. It will make a swishing sound as the bottom hem moves but it is pretty quiet unless you're wearing leg armor or high boots that come up to the bottom or the maille, in which case, everyone will know when you're coming.

To cut down the swishing sound dramatically, sew a leather covering over the hem. A few vertical strips from the belt area down, will also cut down the noise level. A simple cotton or wool gambeson, tunic or coat over it will bring down the level so that someone walking with you may not know you're wearing maille.
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hesinraca
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Post by hesinraca »

That is very true. Common layering was like you said, a gambison, then the maille, then a long tunic (arming tunic I think it was called?) or a tabbard belted down. You look a bit thicker in general but you can hide chainmaille and its sounds. Still, I think I'd opt for something else...
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Post by mcapanelli »

I was thinking of a Ringmaille coat myself

http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/produ ... ucts_id=39

It doesn't look very heavy and looks quite mobile.

Keep in mind though that while plate isn't very practical, it was in no way restrictive in combat. A well made set of plate properly measured and fitted was extremely mobile and the weight, while upwards of a out 70 to 90 pounds give or take a few, is quite heavy, it sat so well that you'd hardly notice. I wouldn't recommend trekking through the forest in it, but if you were in a heavy combat situation it'd really be the way to go.
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Dunedain Armour

Post by caedmon »

The general agreement is that Tolkien intended the main armour for the free peoples of Middle Earth to be standard chain (4 in 1 or double knit) mail. When PJ's plate clad Gondorians were shown, it caused a major uproar.

That said I think that Tolkien had a fairly loose victorian/early 20th century interpretation of 'mail' that included things like scale and the ringmaille you're looking at. In fact while not Middle Earth, Tolkien describes the rustic Farmer Giles of Ham as outfitting himself in just that sort of armour.
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Post by Jim E »

Was ringmail ever used in history? It's not a very important question since our database is Tolkien's imagination, but it would be a measure of the armour's efficiency something I'm not very confident about.
Perhaps a courbuilli coat of plates? Light armour and rather strong for it's weight.

I'm not sure however that dunadan rangers ever used armour of any sort other than helmets and bracers. Even when the rangers ride to war with Elladan and Ellrohir, they are described as: "... armed with spear and bow and sword. They were clad in cloaks of dark grey, and their hoods were cast now over helm and head."
No reference to mail haubergs is made in the whole passsage, although that doesn't necessary mean they didn't wear any. When he describes the elven brothers later on however their mail haubergs are mentioned: "... clad alike in bright mail beneath cloaks of silver grey."
What sort of helmets do you think those might be? I think that a simple conical spangen with a noseguard might be fitting
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Post by caedmon »

My understanding is that ringmaille was a victorian invention attempting to explain medieval artisitic convention.
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Post by Andy M »

As Jack said, there was no plate armour in Tolkien's ME.

I've thought that a well fitted coat-of-plates would be good, given it's a bit easier to carry when not worn (which would be most of the time) Also, with a thin leather outer covering it would be quiet. Bracers, always in my opinion. Anyone who has sparred knows the vulnerability of the arms. I'd still like to get into I.33 and try the buckler with other weapons as well. Bucklers are another easily carried item.

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Post by Hereward the Wake »

As I recall Imrahil is described with metal vambrace during/after the battle of Pelenor fields.

It shopuld also be noted that with mail the best way to wear it is between layers of padding, the first laer difusing the hit the mail to make sure that anything getting through the first layer of padding is stopped and the final layer of padding to absorb any remaining force. Has bonus of keeping mail away from the elements and reducing the nose that is made as well.
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Post by hesinraca »

I'm a little sleepy right now from taking care of my post-op girlfriend, but Jack, are you suggesting ringmaille was invented to explain medieval artistic expression? Could you expand on that?


In my studies, chainmaille is a very very widespread armour throghout a very long span of time.

And yes, kingsmaille (double 4 in 1) is very common. Ironically, with a sturdy silk(asian tradition) or tight weave cloth under and over it, the chainmaille had comparable protection from slices and projectiles as plate. The only issue is slower moving points such as swords could still punch through chain where the sword would stop it.

I'd still opt for leather courbouli armour, maybe with a little chain supplementing it... maybe...
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Post by david lewis smith »

My chain is only 19 lbs, flat riveted so it is historically accurate. I do fight in it, the last turny I fraught in was 3 one hour matches with an hour break between each one. this is SCA style fighting, full force, full on.

Go with chain, but get avoid anything butted, that stuff is well, 'stuff' heh and will break down with any sort of abuse.

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Post by caedmon »

hesinraca wrote:but Jack, are you suggesting ringmaille was invented to explain medieval artistic expression? Could you expand on that?
My understanding is from reading some 15 years ago. Looking into it a bit further, it appears that the truth is a bit more nuanced. Here's a good treatment.

It still seems safe to say that it was not a historic style commonly used in Europe. However it is a style Tolkien specifcally references in non-LOTR works and so I think it probably would fit well in the underdeveloped wilds of the North.
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Post by Hereward the Wake »

Don't forget that padded/quilted stuff was common is easier to make than mail and lighter. It is very affective against all kinds of attack and you would need to wear if you were wearing mail anyway. It also has the advantage of acting as an insulating layer in cooler weather.
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Post by hesinraca »

[quote="caedmon"]
My understanding is from reading some 15 years ago. Looking into it a bit further, it appears that the truth is a bit more nuanced. Here's a good treatment.
quote]

Aha, see, you learn a hundred new things every day. THe armoursmith I apprenticed with used "ringmaille" and "chainmaille" interchangably. I never knew that ring mail was something akin to a coat of metal washers and chainmaille was an actual weave of metal rings. This makes much more sense. I believe when I studied coat of plates I found images of this "ringmaille" and just assumed it was a variation on coat of plates. Excellent.

In that case, Ringmaille is indeed quiet, whereas chainmaille can be made to be quiet (asin the reference to leather trims and tabards over top).

I'd vote against ringmaille personally, seams to leave too many gaps in standard formation...
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