Corn Boilers and Dwarvish Make

[Elleth]

I think for a decent hatchet you'd also need a forge.

It sounds like you're really set on making some kind of weapon (and understandably so - young men and implements of destruction just call out to each other. )

Given the tools you have though, I think you're stuck with either armor (and probably heavier armor than most rangers would wear at that) or a hammered out cooking vessel.

That said, I imagine if you could turn out some one- or two- person Ranger versions of the perhaps apocryphal "corn boiler" - something that does this job -
http://www.goosebay-workshops.com/Pots-and-Kettles
(also look up "mucket" for 19th c. use)

Using techniques that look like this -
http://www.jelldragon.com/cauldrons.htm




.... I'm betting you could trade them for all sorts of forged sharp pointies.

(look at the prices on those cauldrons! Two or three of the big ones - if you can match their craftmanship and can find buyers - and you're getting close to the price of an Albion or custom forged sword! Smaller ones - maybe about the size of a softball so they fit well in a ranger's pack or bedroll for a solitary scout - would I imagine sell like hotcakes here. I'd buy one. )

[Greg]

That said, I imagine if you could turn out some one- or two- person Ranger versions of the perhaps apocryphal "corn boiler"

I'm curious as to your thoughts regarding corn boilers as "apocryphal". Would that be concerning its use in a Medieval context, or its use at all, in any period?

[caedmon]

http://www.goosebay-workshops.com/Pots-and-Kettles
(also look up "mucket" for 19th c. use)

Umm.. Don't Google "Mucket". In this context I think it means Mug + Bucket. It seems to have another more common meaning.


But I would also be interested in the apocryphal nature of the corn boiler.

[Elleth]

Greg-

By way of explanation, I come from mostly an 18th c. reenactor background. In the 1990's "Mark Baker / Longhunter" era, the corn boiler was all the rage. It's a tool perfectly suited to the single woodsman on a scout.

... more recently, the general consensus has drifted towards:
A. The "corn boiler" didn't really exist in the late 18th c. It apparently drifted into the hobby via civil war reenactors and their muckets.
B. In the 18th c. period, the appropriate vessel would have been a trade kettle, military mess kettle, or tin cup - depending on the person, what they had available to them, and what they were doing.
C. In most periods, there really aren't that many people out alone in the woods in the first place - your typical trekker is with a group of people, and a shared mess with a larger kettle was typical.

That's not my research - I'm just repeating conventional wisdom in the 18th c. reenactor community at this time. Subject to change, of course.

But given that resources are comparatively expensive in the pre industrial period, it makes sense - there wasn't much we'd recognize as a camping gear industry until the 20th c, and even if there were, having a dedicated pot for camping would have been a fairly expensive proposition for most folk. By far the most common approach would have been using a regular pot from your house and sharing it with everyone you were out with.

All that said, there's some copper almost "flower pot" looking copper vessels on eBay mostly from Turkey and such I think that are about the same capacity as a "corn boiler" so I imagine having a little one-person pot is justifiable in a medieval / Tolkienesque context. It just wouldn't look like Mark Baker's fun little boiler.



=======
* not to judge Mr. Baker or anyone else. He did an AMAZING job for the hobby, especially considering he was working in the pre-internet era. It was a different world then.

[Elleth]

Umm.. Don't Google "Mucket"

eek!

Yes, in this context it refers to a composite vessel Civil War reenactors used - and I presume still do.
http://www.fcsutler.com/fctin.asp

It's a large tin cup that has a handle, lid, and bale for hanging over heat.

[Elleth]

To expand a little (and I'm going from memory here, so if it's important to you please do your own research)...

A. The closest thing to a corn boiler in 18th c. North America were nesting copper pots like these. Nice, but kind of large:

(as an aside - see how they stick out at the base - that's typical of older period hand finishing. The double-folded bottom like you see on some soup cans even today is a 19th c. machine technique)

B. Trade kettles like are historically documented certainly in the 18th and I think the 17th c. as well. Note the heavy rolled rim and sheet "dog ear" tabs for the bale

(both of the above from Goose Bay - when shopping note which items are "historically inspired" and which are "historic reproductions"

C. Military / field camp use tended towards these:

Those are about the size of a paint bucket if memory serves, and were used for a "mess" of about 6 men I think. Early in the RevWar some soldiers had heavy cast iron pots from home for the same purpose, but these were discarded as soon as practicable.
(source Hot Dip Tin)

The same source also has a number of documented tin cups, and people travelling with same is recorded. I imagine they could serve as decent cooking vessels if proper care was taken with them.




And finally - none of that is really applicable to Middle Earth. In the mid 18th c. we're already into a proto-industrial culture.

That said, some Roman stuff is surprisingly modern looking - a reproduction Patera like these would fit the role okay -

From Soul of the Warrior

.. though frankly, I'm just in love with iron. I think those jelldragon cauldrons look amazing.
Nothing really says Middle Earth to me like this one -




(also, IIRC cast iron cauldrons like our mental image of the "witches cauldron" are also fairly late - I want to say into the gunpowder age, since I think it was bell and cannon casting R&D that got us those - but certainly well after the Anglo Saxon era in any event. )

[Greg]

I will beg to differ as far as Middle-Earth legitimacy, but I certainly see your points in all other areas.

Hobbits tend towards 18th century culture, though they didn't seem to be terribly industrialized. Ergo, I present the remnants of Erebor. I could swear I've actually read a reference that mentions some of them being Tinkers in their wanderings, though if that's something that a PJ movie has implanted in my brain..."Out, damned spot!"

At any rate, I believe the Dwarves of Erebor that resided in the Blue Mountains post-Smaug, pre-hobbit could easily have made muckets, boilers, and the like with the skills they possessed. Now I also am a firm believer that NO hobbit would have ANY use for something so small as a trekking-size corn boiler. Not nearly enough there for even ONE meal, let alone six.

Which brings me to my point, I think. I find it very likely that the Dunedain would have taken advantage of a resource like the Erebor-exiles to craft items, perhaps even weapons, for them at need. Not all of the Rangers would have been as closely linked to Rivendell as Aragorn, and Narsil itself, after all, was originally forged by Telchar, a dwarf. They would certainly respect the craftsmanship dwarves are capable of, and I think it would be prudent of a Ranger to see a cooking pot being made by a Dwarven tinker and say "You know what I need? One of those...about *this* big."

Cutting down on weight and unnecessary items can't be a 20th century innovation.

But that's just me. JBook and I, at one point, were planning to assemble a group of Rangers and Dwarves to look into practical applications and potential trade opportunities of a connection between the Blue Mountain Dwarve and the Dunedain...it just got rolled over by other projects...and our five daughters, between the two of us...

[Mirimaran]

Funny, I just saw a cornboiler over at Crazy Crow for 29.00 lol but I agree with Greg on the issue of Dwarven trade and manufacture. Over at the Tolkien Society we were talking about Bilbo's clock and I surmise that anything that intricate had to be made by Dwarves and perhaps was gained in trade with the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. I would think that the Dwarves would have appreciated the Road being kept free of bandits and the like by the Rangers, and surely would have shared in trade or appeciation some of their food storage and cooking items, as well as superior weapons.

Ken

[Elleth]

Greg - certainly! We're dealing with a fictional universe after all, there's no need whatsover for you to be bound by what was carried by people in 1780 Kentucky any more than you have to learn grammatically correct Klingon.

That said, there are some historical contingencies of material culture that you can't un-know if you get deep enough into it. A machine-rolled seam on a tin pot looks as "off" to a historically minded eye as a hex screw on a sword pommel. Neither are beyond the ken of a hypothetical dwarven master smith I imagine - but speaking purely for myself - either is enough to pop me out of immersion and place my mind in the modern world of phone bills and automobile noise.

What would a real life Ranger have likely carried?
Probably a copper or bronze vessel beaten from a single piece (no seams to give way if left on the fire too long), possibly tinned or just scrupulously kept clean of verdigris, and with loops for a hammered bail - something like this -


http://yurdan.com/category/turkish-copp ... new-copper

.. but of a more western aesthetic sensibility.

Personally, I still like the look and cultural connotations of riveted iron enough to ignore that. To each their own.

[caedmon]

I'm rather partial to cast bronze myself.

[Elleth]

ah! I KNOW that pot!
yours?
were you showing it off at a ren faire in Anchorage a year or three back?

I love it!

[caedmon]

Blink, blink.. Yes, yes I was. It's now a part of the house display. I take it that you're in Alaska?

[Greg]

Saw that split coming. We hijacked that a good while back. At least we're covering some good ground...these discussions are exactly what this forum is here for.

[Ringulf]

I heartily agree with both Greg and Mirimaran about the ability and trade habits of Ereborian refugees but would also add that the House of Sindri (One of the Seven Fathers of the Dwarven people, whose tribe's dark history actually saw their folk aligned with Mordor against the free peoples of Middle Earth for a time) After losing their holdings in the lands closest to the Easterlings, it is told that many became itinerant wandering merchants, smiths and tinkers, peddling their wares on their backs all over the area around the Sea of Rhun, Dorwinion and could be seen in the markets even as far as Dale, Esgeroth, Meathelburg and Osgiliath. Many also became hucksters and Charltons too, but I won't delve into that at this time.
Suffice it to say that wandering Dwarven tinkers and tradesman of all sorts could very well have supplied these types of goods, but the greater question to the non-fictional dark age European would be....what is this corn you speak of?

[Udwin]

...the greater question to the non-fictional dark age European would be....what is this corn you speak of?

Corn is an old english word for a generic cereal 'grain'--wheat, oats, barley, &c.
What modern Americans refer to as 'corn' (the yellow stuff that grows on ears) is logically called Maize (from its Linnean name, Zea mays) by the rest of the world.
When Europeans arrived in the Americas, they called the indigenous naturals' cultivated crop 'Indian corn' (i.e. grain grown by the 'Indians'). Over the centuries the 'Indian' adjective fell by the wayside and the original meaning of 'corn' was long forgotten by Americans.

This confusion has led some (American) Tolkien scholars to argue that the "high corn growing" spoken of in the lament of the Rohirrim constitutes an historical inaccuracy, as maize is a New World crop, and would have been unknown in Middle-earth. As I've broken it down ^, it's a simple issue of linguistic confusion.

Now, potatoes, on the other hand...