Mannish
- jbook
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Mannish
So language was obviously a big part of Tolkien's inspiration to pen his works. I have been pondering about this and for us in the MERF that mostly portray men, I thought it could be interesting to discuss the language(s) of Men.
The heaviest influences for what Tolkien described as Mannish, was Old Norse, Old English, Gothic and Celtic.
There are plenty of good online resources for these languages, and I wondered if anyone had thought of maybe trying to incorporate vocabulary words etc into their talk at gatherings in the future.
I'm sure Udwin could present all of this in a real scholarly sounding way, but I thought I'd at least get the ball rolling.
The heaviest influences for what Tolkien described as Mannish, was Old Norse, Old English, Gothic and Celtic.
There are plenty of good online resources for these languages, and I wondered if anyone had thought of maybe trying to incorporate vocabulary words etc into their talk at gatherings in the future.
I'm sure Udwin could present all of this in a real scholarly sounding way, but I thought I'd at least get the ball rolling.
Re: Mannish
Love this idea! Not sure how deep into it I will get, given my somewhat short attention span for scholarly matters these days, but I will be watching with interest. Meanwhile, here's something that may be related - an article talking a bit about why Tolkien might have chosen to use the word "Ranger," which has French roots, rather than something more rooted in Anglo Saxon, as he usually did.
http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2012/02/ ... me-ranger/
http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2012/02/ ... me-ranger/
Maerondir Perianseron, also called “Mickel,” Halfling Friend - Ranger of the Misty Mountains
Re: Mannish
Hah, I’m honored you think so highly of me, J! How’s this?
I’ve been dipping my toes in this topic recently, as a result of my resolution to apply a linguistic layer to my impressions.
Tolkien’s use of English is so entwined in his framework as a ‘translator’ of the Red Book, it’s tricky to know where to start.
Basically, any words of English we read in his books would have been spoken ‘in-universe’ in Aduni/Westron – the Common Speech (Sôval Phârë), or conversely if you like, all in-universe Westron has been translated to modern English. This is why that language is so, so, so frustratingly under-detailed (not just when compared to the fully-fleshed-out Elvish languages, but even to its root language, Adunaic (the language of the Numenoreans), which has 4x the vocab and even some phrases fully worked out! I think only Dwarvish and Orkish are more incomplete).
As I don’t have any original thoughts to add yet, rather than reinvent the wheel, I’ll post this explanation from the good folks here
I’ve been dipping my toes in this topic recently, as a result of my resolution to apply a linguistic layer to my impressions.
Tolkien’s use of English is so entwined in his framework as a ‘translator’ of the Red Book, it’s tricky to know where to start.
Basically, any words of English we read in his books would have been spoken ‘in-universe’ in Aduni/Westron – the Common Speech (Sôval Phârë), or conversely if you like, all in-universe Westron has been translated to modern English. This is why that language is so, so, so frustratingly under-detailed (not just when compared to the fully-fleshed-out Elvish languages, but even to its root language, Adunaic (the language of the Numenoreans), which has 4x the vocab and even some phrases fully worked out! I think only Dwarvish and Orkish are more incomplete).
As I don’t have any original thoughts to add yet, rather than reinvent the wheel, I’ll post this explanation from the good folks here
(It’s worth noting that calling Adunaic ‘pseudo-Germanic’ is misleading; it would be more correct to say that Adunaic relates to Aduni as proto-Germanic(Indo-European root) relates to our English. Actual Adunaic doesn’t sound Germanic at all; more like, the most guttural, jaw-cracking, caveman, Mesopotamian-priesty stuff you can imagine. Really sounds like something that would be spoken 7,000 years ago.)“The translation went one step further by also changing all languages akin to Westron. Rohirric, the language of the Rohirrim, was translated as Old English, as Rohirric is an archaic relative of Westron (since the Edain from whose speech Westron is derived were related to the ancestors of the Rohirrim) much as Old English…is an archaic relative of English. Similarly, the tongue of Dale, from which came the names of the Dwarves of Durin's house, was translated by Old Norse, a language related to Old English and modern English as Dalish was related to Rohirric and Westron.
This complete translation into English is also paralleled in the historical development of Westron within the narrative. Adûnaic and its related language Rohirric are both in the "Northern Mannish" language branch, and are represented as Germanic languages. The coastal people that originally inhabited the lands of Arnor and Gondor were the Gwathuirim, whose language was "Southern Mannish". They were the shared ancestors of the Dunlendings, Men of the White Mountains, and Bree-landers; these groups are culturally represented as pseudo-Celtic. The result is that the original pseudo-Germanic language Adûnaic was allowed to wildly mutate and become influenced by the pseudo-Celtic language of its neighbors, as Old English was influenced in the early Middle Ages. Finally, this polyglot was intentionally enriched by scholars with additions from Quenya (Elf-Latin) and Sindarin, as Old English was influenced by the Latin of the medieval Church.â€
WSL - Westron as a Second Language!
All of which is to say…due to the FRAGMENTS we’ve been left, a full-immersion Common Speech event ain’t happening. Heh heh.
I find Tolkien’s comments in Letter 193 are helpful in explaining the situation and in pointing us in a direction:
However, if I’m interpreting a Rohirric persona, and I drop some Anglo-Saxon terms into my English speech, that would be the same as a Westron-speaker lapsing back into his Rohirric mother tongue, which does jive with what Tolkien tells us about their culture at the end of the passage above:
“Théoden was born in Gondor and C.S. was the domestic language of the Golden Hall in his father's day†(ibid)
So apparently Westron was the language of Theoden’s court, but the poets around the fire at night (and the majority of Rohirrim/commoners as well I’m sure) still spoke Rohirric.
Therefore, following Tolkien’s comments, for our purposes, I think that it makes the most sense to simply apply an accent to our English, correlating to the Mannish branch that would be spoken by our persona. For example, my Beorning persona falls geographically midway between the ‘Gothic’ of southern Rhovanion and the ‘Norse’ of northern Rhovanion. From these cues, I’ve blended the two into a sort of generic Scandinavian accent that works. As it’s not a very common accent to encounter, using it forces me to slow down and carefully focus, just as Tolkien says ^.
For Dunedain impressions, per his comments, it seems you can get away with speaking proper London English (“the best Minas Tirithâ€). Breelanders, Dunlendings, and other indigenous-descended folks might use a Brythonic accent: Welsh, Gaelic &c.
(That’s one point where I have to tip my hat to the LOTRO devs, who I believe did something similar, assigning a different ‘Celtic’ accent for the various Men encountered in Enedwaith, Dunland, Angmar, &c.)
I find Tolkien’s comments in Letter 193 are helpful in explaining the situation and in pointing us in a direction:
SO…how to incorporate this convoluted language-situation into our impressions? We’re already speaking English, so I don’t think it would make sense to pepper our speech with actual Westron words (though it is fun for kicks/authenticity points)…I can’t speak something More English than what I already am.“I have no doubt that, if this 'history' were real, all users of the C[ommon] Speech would reveal themselves by their accent, differing in place, people, and rank, but that cannot be represented when C. S. is turned into English – and is not (I think) necessary. I paid great attention to such linguistic differentiation as was possible: in diction, idiom, and so on ; and I doubt if much more can be imported, except in so far as the individual actor represents his feeling for the character in tone and style. As Minas Tirith is at the source of C. Speech it is to C.S. as London is to modern English, and the standard of comparison! None of its inhabitants should have an 'accent' in terms of vowels &c.
The Rohirrim no doubt (as our ancient English ancestors in a similar state of culture and society) spoke, at least their own tongue, with a slower tempo and more sonorous articulation, than modern 'urbans'. But I think it is safe to represent them when using C. S., as they practically always do (for obvious reasons) as speaking the best M[inas] T[irith]. Possibly a little too good, as it would be a learned language, somewhat slower and more careful than a native's. But that is a nicety safely neglected, and not always true….â€
However, if I’m interpreting a Rohirric persona, and I drop some Anglo-Saxon terms into my English speech, that would be the same as a Westron-speaker lapsing back into his Rohirric mother tongue, which does jive with what Tolkien tells us about their culture at the end of the passage above:
“Théoden was born in Gondor and C.S. was the domestic language of the Golden Hall in his father's day†(ibid)
So apparently Westron was the language of Theoden’s court, but the poets around the fire at night (and the majority of Rohirrim/commoners as well I’m sure) still spoke Rohirric.
Therefore, following Tolkien’s comments, for our purposes, I think that it makes the most sense to simply apply an accent to our English, correlating to the Mannish branch that would be spoken by our persona. For example, my Beorning persona falls geographically midway between the ‘Gothic’ of southern Rhovanion and the ‘Norse’ of northern Rhovanion. From these cues, I’ve blended the two into a sort of generic Scandinavian accent that works. As it’s not a very common accent to encounter, using it forces me to slow down and carefully focus, just as Tolkien says ^.
For Dunedain impressions, per his comments, it seems you can get away with speaking proper London English (“the best Minas Tirithâ€). Breelanders, Dunlendings, and other indigenous-descended folks might use a Brythonic accent: Welsh, Gaelic &c.
(That’s one point where I have to tip my hat to the LOTRO devs, who I believe did something similar, assigning a different ‘Celtic’ accent for the various Men encountered in Enedwaith, Dunland, Angmar, &c.)
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
- Elleth
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Re: Mannish
Hunh.. that is an interesting topic!
First, when doing a project last year that required a lot of westron research, I ran across this book and really recommend it:
Words of Westernesse: Tolkien's Languages of Men and Hobbits
( Spoiler: there's a short writeup of it and a couple other books by the same author in the upcoming MERS issue. )
Next - As to throwing in some of the few Westron words we have into our own speech... I think it would have exactly the opposite effect of what's desired: namely to make what should be the "common speech" sound exotic. (And frankly, I'm with Udwin - it's not a pretty tongue. But it does sound ancient. )
I LOVE however the idea of emulating the families of mannish speech with accents, though I don't know if I've the acting chops for it.
Finally, I think it does suit those of us with Dunedain personas to spend some time with Sindarin at least, given how closely entwined those two cultures are.
I doubt I'll ever be conversational, but a decent sense of Sindarin and perhaps a smattering of Quenya is a worthy goal.. for some future year.
First, when doing a project last year that required a lot of westron research, I ran across this book and really recommend it:
Words of Westernesse: Tolkien's Languages of Men and Hobbits
( Spoiler: there's a short writeup of it and a couple other books by the same author in the upcoming MERS issue. )
Next - As to throwing in some of the few Westron words we have into our own speech... I think it would have exactly the opposite effect of what's desired: namely to make what should be the "common speech" sound exotic. (And frankly, I'm with Udwin - it's not a pretty tongue. But it does sound ancient. )
I LOVE however the idea of emulating the families of mannish speech with accents, though I don't know if I've the acting chops for it.
Finally, I think it does suit those of us with Dunedain personas to spend some time with Sindarin at least, given how closely entwined those two cultures are.
I doubt I'll ever be conversational, but a decent sense of Sindarin and perhaps a smattering of Quenya is a worthy goal.. for some future year.
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
- jbook
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Re: Mannish
Excellent! I think the accent concept is a good route to take as how many of us really have the time to learn an entirely new language.
That being said though, there are certain words that could be useful to insert into your speech. Changing certain words you might usually say in favor of an older word that means the same thing.
For instance I was reading a Tolkien biography by Humphrey Carpenter. It was talking about Tolkien's disdain for Shakespeare and talked about a teacher he had.
I think this is a good example of using an older word that is tied to the deeper roots of our own English language etc.
Here are a few sites of interest with a huge vocabulary list. Middle and Old English
http://www.librarius.com/gy.htm
https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~cr30/vocabulary/
That being said though, there are certain words that could be useful to insert into your speech. Changing certain words you might usually say in favor of an older word that means the same thing.
For instance I was reading a Tolkien biography by Humphrey Carpenter. It was talking about Tolkien's disdain for Shakespeare and talked about a teacher he had.
So instead of saying Manure, say Muck!But if Shakespeare failed to please him there was other meat more suited to his taste. By inclination his form-master Brewerton was a medievalist. Always a fierce teacher, he demanded that his pupils should use the plain old words of the English language. If a boy employed the term 'manure' Brewerton would roar out: "Manure? Call it muck! Say it three times! Muck, muck, muck!" He encouraged his pupils to read Chaucer, and he recited the Canterbury Tales to them in the original Middle English. To Ronald Tolkien's ears this was a revelation, and he determined to learn more about the history of the language.
I think this is a good example of using an older word that is tied to the deeper roots of our own English language etc.
Here are a few sites of interest with a huge vocabulary list. Middle and Old English
http://www.librarius.com/gy.htm
https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~cr30/vocabulary/
- Kortoso
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Re: Mannish
Here's a source for Adunaic. It doesn't seem more guttural than German, to my mind anyway:Udwin wrote:(It’s worth noting that calling Adunaic ‘pseudo-Germanic’ is misleading; it would be more correct to say that Adunaic relates to Aduni as proto-Germanic(Indo-European root) relates to our English. Actual Adunaic doesn’t sound Germanic at all; more like, the most guttural, jaw-cracking, caveman, Mesopotamian-priesty stuff you can imagine. Really sounds like something that would be spoken 7,000 years ago.)
ht[url]tp://folk.uib.no/hnohf/adunaic.htm[/url]
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- Elleth
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Re: Mannish
Ha! I'd seen that. Spent soooo much time combing that little word list.
I think our opinion will just have to vary though - all those k's and raz's and kkh's and such. Sounds to me like Hebrew with a head cold.
I think our opinion will just have to vary though - all those k's and raz's and kkh's and such. Sounds to me like Hebrew with a head cold.
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
Re: Mannish
Elleth wrote: Sounds to me like Hebrew with a head cold.
Snarf!
-Jack Horner
----------------------------
Impression: Cædmon Reedmace | bronze founder living in Archet, Breeland. c. 3017
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Impression: Cædmon Reedmace | bronze founder living in Archet, Breeland. c. 3017
Re: Mannish
Yesssss, exactly! Eruchin, Elohim, potato, potahto.Elleth wrote:I think our opinion will just have to vary though - all those k's and raz's and kkh's and such. Sounds to me like Hebrew with a head cold.
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
- SierraStrider
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Re: Mannish
Interesting concept. I speak Swedish, which is a lot simpler than Old Norse in its syntax, but shares a lot of root words. Honestly, the purest blend of Old Norse, Old English and Celtic extant today is the Scottish dialect. Words like "bairn" ( child) "ken" (understand) and "braw" (beautiful) are all purely Scandinavian in origin (equivalent to barn, känna and bra in Swedish). Again, I'm not too familiar with Old Norse and understand that the syntax is more complex, I've also noticed that a typical "redneck" accent seems to share a lot of syntax with the modern scandinavian languages. "I learned me to cook from this here book" would be a perfectly grammatical construction in Swedish--though this may well be pure coincidence.
Apparently Tolkien wasn't a fan of Shakespeare, but his Early Modern English also shares a lot more with the Nordic languages than our modern English does. Words like "betimes" (early) "mickle" (much) and of course "wherefore" (why) are much more intuitive from Swedish than modern English (equivalent to betida, mycket and varför)
I've also ground through much of the Canterbury tales in its original language. It's just on the edge of my ability to understand without a reference. You can find recordings online of people reading it in the original language, and it's fantastic. Original pronunciation Shakespeare is also very cool.
Original Old English Beowulf is beyond me, I'm afraid, but for anybody who hasn't read it in translation I highly recommend it. It's a very good early monster-hunter narrative, and certainly one of the core influences on all modern fantasy.
I've always thought that if I ever needed to fake Elvish in a Ranger capacity I could just speak Swedish with a Viggo Mortenson accent (from the movies) and get away with it quite handily. Of course, If I ever needed to fake Orcish, I could speak Swedish with a Viggo Mortenson accent (from Denmark) and only Danes would think it sounded anything other than dark and malevolent.
Apparently Tolkien wasn't a fan of Shakespeare, but his Early Modern English also shares a lot more with the Nordic languages than our modern English does. Words like "betimes" (early) "mickle" (much) and of course "wherefore" (why) are much more intuitive from Swedish than modern English (equivalent to betida, mycket and varför)
I've also ground through much of the Canterbury tales in its original language. It's just on the edge of my ability to understand without a reference. You can find recordings online of people reading it in the original language, and it's fantastic. Original pronunciation Shakespeare is also very cool.
Original Old English Beowulf is beyond me, I'm afraid, but for anybody who hasn't read it in translation I highly recommend it. It's a very good early monster-hunter narrative, and certainly one of the core influences on all modern fantasy.
I've always thought that if I ever needed to fake Elvish in a Ranger capacity I could just speak Swedish with a Viggo Mortenson accent (from the movies) and get away with it quite handily. Of course, If I ever needed to fake Orcish, I could speak Swedish with a Viggo Mortenson accent (from Denmark) and only Danes would think it sounded anything other than dark and malevolent.
Re: Mannish
HA! Honestly, if someone really wanted to 'fake Elvish' for a Ranger impression, Welsh would be my go-to. In terms of syntax and sound, Sindarin comes pretty close. The BBC has a ton of fun online resources for learning conversational Welsh (or at least they did, about 9 years ago when I was still into it hardcore). I'm sure it's all archived somewhere.SierraStrider wrote:I've always thought that if I ever needed to fake Elvish in a Ranger capacity I could just speak Swedish with a Viggo Mortenson accent (from the movies) and get away with it quite handily. Of course, If I ever needed to fake Orcish, I could speak Swedish with a Viggo Mortenson accent (from Denmark) and only Danes would think it sounded anything other than dark and malevolent.
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
- Greg
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Re: Mannish
I can fake an Irish accent passably for americans. The one thing I'll never be able to do without moving across the pond that I would absolutely die to be able to do, is speak fluent, convincing welsh. Moreso than Elvish, even. Hot dang, it's beautiful.Udwin wrote:HA! Honestly, if someone really wanted to 'fake Elvish' for a Ranger impression, Welsh would be my go-to. In terms of syntax and sound, Sindarin comes pretty close. The BBC has a ton of fun online resources for learning conversational Welsh (or at least they did, about 9 years ago when I was still into it hardcore). I'm sure it's all archived somewhere.
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Re: Mannish
An interesting side-note is that the PJ & Co. did actually take some of this into consideration when making the films. Actors were given specific accents according to their regions of origin, with a fair deal of care and deliberation. Most of them even did a passable job at this... most...
I recently either read or watched a whole breakdown of this (which accents were assigned to which characters/regions and why), but now I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. I was quite impressed with how much thought went into it. I'll have to do some digging to see if I can find it.
I recently either read or watched a whole breakdown of this (which accents were assigned to which characters/regions and why), but now I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. I was quite impressed with how much thought went into it. I'll have to do some digging to see if I can find it.
Maerondir Perianseron, also called “Mickel,” Halfling Friend - Ranger of the Misty Mountains
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Re: Mannish
There's a Celtic language in Northern France, Breton, that descended from Welsh and Cornish. It's the language of the song from Blackhawk Down. That's got my vote.Greg wrote:I can fake an Irish accent passably for americans. The one thing I'll never be able to do without moving across the pond that I would absolutely die to be able to do, is speak fluent, convincing welsh. Moreso than Elvish, even. Hot dang, it's beautiful.Udwin wrote:HA! Honestly, if someone really wanted to 'fake Elvish' for a Ranger impression, Welsh would be my go-to. In terms of syntax and sound, Sindarin comes pretty close. The BBC has a ton of fun online resources for learning conversational Welsh (or at least they did, about 9 years ago when I was still into it hardcore). I'm sure it's all archived somewhere.
There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go.