Goblins: Homo Sapiens Eldarensis-Yrchi or Australopithecus Yrchi?

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caedmon
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Goblins: Homo Sapiens Eldarensis-Yrchi or Australopithecus Yrchi?

Post by caedmon »

Ok, there are two theories on the origins of Orcs/Goblins. One that they are elves twisted by Morgoth's malice, and the other that they are uplifts from a lower species. Both have support from Tolkien, but what do you think?


The scientific names are entirely my own based on my assumptions of their proximity to our own sub-species.

If they are twisted elves they would be a sub-sub-species of human? (Elves can interbreed with humans and produce fertile offspring, and the mention of Goblin-men in FOTR suggests that Orcs can do the same. )

On the other hand if they are uplifts, I chose the the Australopithecus genus as a near relative non-ape.

Your thoughts?
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Re: Goblins: Homo Sapiens Eldarensis-Yrchi or Australopithecus Yrchi?

Post by Peter Remling »

I never cared for the twisted by Morgoth's explanation.

A mutation of a racial branch shows more promise to me. Magic or whatever aura given off by proximity to Morgoth could, like radiation, effect DNA, corrupting the genes and causing the "off breed". As Morgoth or Sauron decreased direct association the genes stopped mutating and the "new" race started to breed true.

This would also explain Saruman's new breed of Orc. Saruman's association with magic has a similar effect on orcs creating urak-hai.
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Re: Goblins: Homo Sapiens Eldarensis-Yrchi or Australopithecus Yrchi?

Post by Eledhwen »

For my part, I go with the Silmarillion.

"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."

I know Tolkien was going to revise the book and never got around to it.

It is in the book as it stands, it works for me. Taking the elves that hid from Oromë and doing as described, thereby creating the first Orcs.

It certainly reinforces the power and malice of Melkor.

That said. Nothing on Middle Earth was not in the music of Ainur, all was created in those three essays of song. So Melkor himself only had the power because it was in those verses and Illuvatar made it so. Explains how you get evil since it cannot be made whole cloth. All things have their source in the Music and will of Illuvatar.

Yeah, I'll stop now. This is what I go by.

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Re: Goblins: Homo Sapiens Eldarensis-Yrchi or Australopithecus Yrchi?

Post by SierraStrider »

It's not Tolkien-proper theorizing, but I've always liked thinking about how the origins of different Tolkien-esque races would come about in a more "hard fantasy" setting.

I've always thought that, given humans' propensity for assigning monstrous characteristics to our own absurdly close kin based on little more than cultural differences, it would be possible that some of the races that have become ubiquitous in high fantasy would probably be less distinct than we think.

If I were doing the worldbuilding, I'd divide the races up into 2 genera: the gracile Lupites and the robust Homo.

Among the Lupites, we have Lupites lupites, known to the ancients as the Svartálfar but today called simply goblins, they are mean of stature, slender of build and have blotchy, melanistic skin to aid in camouflage. Nocturnal, they often live in caves where their large, sensitive eyes and echolocation let them live quite comfortably. (While echolocation might sound far-fetched for something as closely related to us as Chimpanzees, note that blind humans often develop echolocation).

The other Lupites species is Lupites aetheriensis, commonly referred to as Hobgoblins or Elves. They are somewhat taller than their subterranean cousins, but have the same distinctive large eyes and ears. Something of a genetic anomaly, they were originally a population of goblins isolated from other populations on an island. This resulted in the widespread manifestations of recessive phenotypes such as albinism and extremely low fertility (perhaps to mitigate boom-bust population cycles), but also a mutation that expresed extremely efficient telomerase enzymes that result in extreme longevity. The Elves are preferentially nocturnal or crepuscular like their endemic mainland cousins, but often venture out in the day in places where the light is dim enough, such as dense forests. Unlike most other races, they eschew caves or even buildings, and seem to have a cultural claustrophobia.

The other branch is Homo, which contains Homo procerus and Homo troglodytes.

Homo procerus, the "tall man", is the most populous of the races. Doubtless you have met some.

Homo troglodytes, the "cave man" are rather shorter than their near cousins but more heavily muscled. They are known among humans as "dwarrows" or "orcs". Though closely enough related to humans that interbreeding is possible, their offspring are sterile. They live primarily underground and, unlike goblins who traditionally inhabit only natural caves, dwarrows are prolific tunnelers.

Like I say, it doesn't really jive with LOTR's lore, but I think it would be one interesting way the family tree could work out.
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Re: Goblins: Homo Sapiens Eldarensis-Yrchi or Australopithecus Yrchi?

Post by Elleth »

I can't say I like to think on the inferred horror - but I do think within the broader Tolkienesque worldview it doesn't make sense to me that Morgoth could uplift beasts. Twisting of form makes sense - but the granting of reason/awareness/spirit seems to me a gift on the order of the Flame Imperishable.

A modern geneticist might take issue with that - but Tolkien's world is deliberately not one of genetics and rigorous classifications.
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Re: Goblins: Homo Sapiens Eldarensis-Yrchi or Australopithecus Yrchi?

Post by caedmon »

Elleth wrote:I can't say I like to think on the inferred horror - but I do think within the broader Tolkienesque worldview it doesn't make sense to me that Morgoth could uplift beasts. Twisting of form makes sense - but the granting of reason/awareness/spirit seems to me a gift on the order of the Flame Imperishable.

A modern geneticist might take issue with that - but Tolkien's world is deliberately not one of genetics and rigorous classifications.

But you do have talking wolves, and dragons which refer to the 'fell spirit inside them'...
-Jack Horner

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Re: Goblins: Homo Sapiens Eldarensis-Yrchi or Australopithecus Yrchi?

Post by Elleth »

Perhaps - like Shelob daugter of Ungoliant - descendants of corrupt Maia? Or inhabited by such?
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