Orcrist: Clearing up a PJ-ism

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Greg
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Orcrist: Clearing up a PJ-ism

Post by Greg »

In The Hobbit film, Gandalf is quoted as saying "You could not wish for a finer blade" when Thorin replaces it in disgust. In The real Hobbit, of course, this conversation doesn't happen, but I often read of the misconception that Elvish blades are the finest that can be had.

When reading the Sil today, I encountered this passage:
J.R.R. Tolkien, in [i]The Silmarillion[/i], Chapter 10: Of the Sindar, regarding the Dwarves, wrote:Their smithcraft indeed the Sindar soon learned of them; yet in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail of linked rings, which was first contrived by the smiths of Belegost, their work had no rival.
Thorin was relatively unarmed at the outset of The Hobbit, so taking on Orcrist at the time makes sense...but why would Thorin choose to keep Orcrist, an Elf-made blade from the first age, when his own people possessed greater craft in the matter once he arrived at the Lonely Mountain? History.
J.R.R. Tolkien, in [i]The Hobbit[/i], Chapter III: A short Rest, wrote:'This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade.' -Elrond
[...]
'Thorin Pondered these words. "I will keep this sword in honour," he said. "May it soon cleave goblins once again!" -Thorin
Thorin, though portrayed as such in The Hobbit film, was not as anti-elf as we are led to believe. He may have had a personal beef with Thranduil, but we never see such an argument between the two of them; the Dwarves are jailed essentially for trespassing. Holding onto Orcrist was, I feel, a respectful nod to the unifying hatred for Orcs among free folk.
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Mirimaran
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Re: Orcrist: Clearing up a PJ-ism

Post by Mirimaran »

Perhaps too, just the very reputation of the sword, how it preceded it and the prestige of carrying it as well. Now, what do you think it actually looked like, and do you think there is a relation between it and Sting?

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Elwindil
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Re: Orcrist: Clearing up a PJ-ism

Post by Elwindil »

I don't see it as a falchion style like it was in the movie, rather I see it as a companion to Glamdring in style and form. a long, possibly hand and a half blade that tapers to a narrow point, good for both cutting and thrusting.
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Re: Orcrist: Clearing up a PJ-ism

Post by Taurinor »

Mirimaran wrote:Perhaps too, just the very reputation of the sword, how it preceded it and the prestige of carrying it as well.
I think an argument to that effect could be made based on the way Thorin reacts to Elrond's description of the history of the sword (emphasis mine).
J.R.R. Tolkien, in The Hobbit, Chapter III: A short Rest, wrote:Elrond knew all about runes of every kind. That day he looked at the swords they had brought from
the trolls’ lair, and he said: “These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the
High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have
come from a dragon’s hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages
ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was
a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore.
Keep them well!”

“Whence did the trolls get them, I wonder?” said Thorin looking at his sword with new interest.
We can't really know if was the history or the name that was interesting to him, though.
Mirimaran wrote:Now, what do you think it actually looked like, and do you think there is a relation between it and Sting?
I don't think that we can really know what it looked like from the text.
J.R.R. Tolkien, in The Hobbit, Chapter II: Roast Mutton, wrote:among them were several
swords of various makes, shapes, and sizes. Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their
beautiful scabbards and jewelled hilts.

Gandalf and Thorin each took one of these; and Bilbo took a knife in a leather sheath. It would
have made only a tiny pocket-knife for a troll, but it was as good as a short sword for the hobbit.
The text specifically says there were blades of many types, but doesn't give details about the form of Orcrist and Glamdring, just that they were pretty and in good condition. The swords are ancient, but made by an ageless race, so it's hard to say how much their weaponry would evolve. Sting isn't described (or at least not in this passage) as jewelled, so I wouldn't think that it was made to match one of the swords. Sting's scabbard is also described as a "leather sheath", while the swords have "beautiful scabbards", so again, I don't know that it was part of a paired set. Doesn't mean that they couldn't have been made by the same smith or in the same age, but I don't know that they were meant to all be together.
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Re: Orcrist: Clearing up a PJ-ism

Post by Straelbora »

Taurinor wrote:
Mirimaran wrote:Perhaps too, just the very reputation of the sword, how it preceded it and the prestige of carrying it as well.
I think an argument to that effect could be made based on the way Thorin reacts to Elrond's description of the history of the sword (emphasis mine).
J.R.R. Tolkien, in The Hobbit, Chapter III: A short Rest, wrote:Elrond knew all about runes of every kind. That day he looked at the swords they had brought from
the trolls’ lair, and he said: “These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the
High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have
come from a dragon’s hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages
ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was
a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore.
Keep them well!”

“Whence did the trolls get them, I wonder?” said Thorin looking at his sword with new interest.
We can't really know if was the history or the name that was interesting to him, though.
Mirimaran wrote:Now, what do you think it actually looked like, and do you think there is a relation between it and Sting?
I don't think that we can really know what it looked like from the text.
J.R.R. Tolkien, in The Hobbit, Chapter II: Roast Mutton, wrote:among them were several
swords of various makes, shapes, and sizes. Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their
beautiful scabbards and jewelled hilts.

Gandalf and Thorin each took one of these; and Bilbo took a knife in a leather sheath. It would
have made only a tiny pocket-knife for a troll, but it was as good as a short sword for the hobbit.
The text specifically says there were blades of many types, but doesn't give details about the form of Orcrist and Glamdring, just that they were pretty and in good condition. The swords are ancient, but made by an ageless race, so it's hard to say how much their weaponry would evolve. Sting isn't described (or at least not in this passage) as jewelled, so I wouldn't think that it was made to match one of the swords. Sting's scabbard is also described as a "leather sheath", while the swords have "beautiful scabbards", so again, I don't know that it was part of a paired set. Doesn't mean that they couldn't have been made by the same smith or in the same age, but I don't know that they were meant to all be together.
The above giving the implication that trolls, too, made swords. It appears that trolls have a range of intelligence, from the chatty trio that caught Thorin's Company to the more mindless cave trolls depicted later in "the Lord of the Rings."
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Re: Orcrist: Clearing up a PJ-ism

Post by Peter Remling »

I'd like to believe they were both double edged Euro style swords. Those are the styles I personally prefer however the names themselves would indicate some thing other. The names Foe Hammer and Orc Cleaver both would bring to mind heavy bladed weapons.

The Barrow blades are the ones that are described as being "leaf bladed" but the Barrow blades are human made not elven or even dwarven.
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