Natural Leather Dye

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Elleth
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Elleth »

I have done the vinegaroon dye, steel wool soaked in vinegar, and find that it rots the leather even if it is promptly oiled after the drying process. Anyone else have that issue?
I think that's the acid in the vinegar working at the leather: you need to cancel it out with a base.
You can (somewhat) ameliorate the dry/rot issue by giving the piece a good dousing in a thick baking soda solution prior to wax/oil/dubbining the piece.
I've not had the problem in my later pieces since I started using that process - but even the oldest of those pieces is only a couple years old, so I can't say from personal experience if the lifespan's as good as leather that's never seen the stuff.


SPEAKING OF - I just used the purchased bottle of walnut dye for more than a dab of spot treatment, and I can now DEFINITELY say there's some vinegaroon in there.
Over lunch break I gave some some pieces of cut/punched goatskin a quick soak in it, patted them dry, and sat them out in the sun.

Two hours later I looked in on 'em - with my regular walnut they'd be just beginning to brown.
These are almost black - one piece that characteristic blue-black of vinegaroon.

I brought them in, scrubbed them hard with aforementioned making soda, rinsed them out a few times, and now have them on the counter trying.

Maybe they'll end up a slightly deeper brown than I was going for: maybe I just lost a goatskin and a day's work of layout and cutting. Guess I'll find out in a few hours.

:/

(Not saying this stuff still doesn't have a place in my toolbox - just that I'm gonna reserve it for the hard-to-dye cases like commercial goatskin)
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by wulfgar »

Ahhhh, never thought about or even heard of the baking soda.
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Manveruon
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Manveruon »

Yeah, that’s really good to know. I never would have considered that, and I would have hated to try it and find my leather falling apart immediately after dying.
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Eofor »

A question from an ignorant and utterly incompetent leather worker but an above average cook....

Is it possible to freeze the leather dye for storage? Would it thaw out into a usable product again?
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Elleth
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Elleth »

I've never tried it, but I don't see why not: it's just walnuts and water.

Also - updating my earlier post: I no longer recommend this product: all my vegtan goat dried jet black. :(
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by theowl »

Elleth wrote: all my vegtan goat dried jet black. :(
Really? 2 passes on some 8 oz vegtan cow got me a light chocolate brown.
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Elleth »

dunno.

This time I used more than usual, since I got less effect than I expected right off the start.
I also put it out in the sun like I do with regular walnut dye, which I didn't do the first time - maybe that contributed as well.

Regardless, from the shade and a faint hint of smell in the finished product I'm fair certain there's vinegaroon in there.
Oh well - maybe I'll make some extra coin purses from the scrap.
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Manveruon »

Hmmmmmm... That is quite good to know. Based on your experiences I do still think it would probably work for my purposes, but I would definitely have to experiment with it a bit first. I'm reallysorry the effects on your stuff were so disastrous! :(

Oh, and Eofor - not a bad idea! I wouldn't have even thought of that but it may very well be worth trying!
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by BrianGrubbs »

Nothing to add to the conversation here, just enjoying sitting back and learning from everyone!

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Elleth
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Elleth »

Just did another run with plain ol' walnut powder, and it worked perfectly in just one cycle!

This is the result:
merf-walnut-leather-dye-seax.jpg
merf-walnut-leather-dye-seax.jpg (98.13 KiB) Viewed 13412 times
background: vegtan goatskin
sheath: ~7oz vegtan, I think Hermann Oak. Dubbined after dyebath, before picture
strip and rectangle: ~5-7oz vegtan, I think Herman Oak. One piece natural/no dye, other with one pass through the dye, no dubbin

(For what it's worth, I've found Hermann Oak takes both walnut and vinegaroon *VERY* well. Mystery "vegtan" not so much.)

The dye is just used my old standby: "Starwest Botanticals Organic Black Walnut Hull Powder, 1 Lb"
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00277FVEO/

Also, I mixed my solution more concentrated this time: I used the whole pound of powder in only about 1" of water on the bottom of a 34 quart stock pot.


The process
The night before a nice sunny day I get the solution up to boiling.
Then I turn off the heat and wait for it to cool down to *just* cool enough to stick my fingers in without getting burned.
(One night I added a bit of cold water to speed that process - but just a bit)

Then all the leather goes in (be sure all the air bubbles are out of the leather itself so it'll sink, and heavy vegtan cow can anchor down lighter goat that wants to float more).

I leave the leather in overnight in a hot bath, but if the sun's good enough I've had decent results with just a quick dunk. Make sure the leather's good and saturated, then spread it out in the sun.

The MOST IMPORTANT part I'm coming to think is to pick a day for suntanning when you get LOTS of good summer sun.

This was today's weather report:
merf-walnut-leather-dye-weather.jpg
merf-walnut-leather-dye-weather.jpg (19.2 KiB) Viewed 13412 times
I put all my pieces out ~9AM and by ~11AM they were dry and quite dark enough. A bit of dubbining and they'll be perfect.


The trick to a nice dark walnut color is threefold I'm coming to think:
* the tannins in the leather itself
* the density of the solution
* Most importantly - picking a nice bright, hot, cloudless day for suntanning work.


Finally, it's *possible* that this bath worked unusually well because this time I had a couple straps that already had bronze buckles in place. It's conceivable that the bronze acted as a mordant, but since the straps where they were sewed didn't look any different from the remainder of the leather, I don't think that's it. OH - also, linen thread takes dye MUCH better when it's in with leather for some reason: not sure why: but the thread in a sewn leather piece gets *really* dark, while the same thread dyed on it's own just gets a bit of color. I'm not certain what's going on there.
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Iodo »

Amazing work Elleth :P
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Manveruon »

Fascinating discoveries! Thank you for the detailed info!

Do you tend to dye things more before or after they are assembled? I suppose it probably depends on the project?

At some point this summer I may have to hit you up for a pouch kit based on the most recent one you made. I’d love to make one like that myself out of naturally dyed goatskin, but I’ve been intimidated by the dying process, and I don’t have a very good place to lay things out in the sun, living in a townhouse.
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Elleth
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Elleth »

Thanks guys! :mrgreen:

Manv -

I prefer to sew, then dye. That means the stitching color matches the leather color.

However, sometimes I don't, because either -

- time constraints mean I have to take advantage of the sun when I have it, and a project might not be ready. Better to dye on a good day, then sew when time allows. I've often cut a piece over a winter, dyed it over summer, then had time again to sew it the following winter. I hate the slow pace, but... that's life with a job and a farm . :/

- the shape of the thing. Generally leather really only gets dark where the sun gets a chance to beat down on it. The upside of this is that you can get cool "camo" effects with thinner leathers by scrunching them up when you set them out to dry - a couple of my snapsacks are like that, and my bedroll cover to. The colors even out a bit with dubbining and time, but some of the contrast persists, which I think is all kinds of cool)

There's another side of that though -

Say with a knifesheath or a snapsack or something, if you just lay it flat on a board one side will be dark and the other light. You can get around some of this by hanging a piece by a string rather than laying it down on a flat surface - that's how I did the knife sheath you see there. But with something like a belt pouch, there's not a whole lot you can do to expose the inside: so those inside panels will stay mostly natural-color while the outside gets dark. Those things I dye in pieces, then dubbin (so they don't crack) - then sew. After that I'll usually add a bit more dubbin over the seams to smooth everything out.


Finally.... I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I won't have time to make new kits or anything in the near future, I'm deeply underwater as it is. :(
Do the templates I posted on the pouch thread help at all? It's a kinda complex project, but certainly well within your capabilities. If you tackle it, I'm happy to give advice as you go.



edit - ooh ooh! One more thing.
I boil the solution every night - or at most two - until I'm done using it. I've found if you let the dye go off, the moldy smell kinda hangs around your piece ever after.
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Manveruon
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Manveruon »

Once again, great detail, thank you so much for sharing it all! Makes perfect sense.

And no worries - I can absolutely use the templates and build-along you posted, it’s just difficult for me to dye anything that requires laying out in the sun because I don’t have any consistently sunny places to lay said project(s). Also, it’s a little difficult for me to get ahold of that kind of leather, and currently I don’t have enough projects to use it for that it’s worthwhile for me to invest in a whole hide and a bunch of dying supplies. But honestly, I may just cave and do it, because I know that once I have that stuff I’ll find uses for it. I always do! :)
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Re: Natural Leather Dye

Post by Greg »

Elleth wrote:Then I turn off the heat and wait for it to cool down to *just* cool enough to stick my fingers in without getting burned.
(One night I added a bit of cold water to speed that process - but just a bit)
A word of caution: If you're using brain-tanned deerhide, cowhide splits, or other flesh-on-both-sides-side leathers, the hot water bath may cause it to shrink. I've had braintan shrink in the hot bath, but dyeing it would've probably gone fine in cooler water because it's so porous compared to the hard and smooth grain sides of vegan, etc.
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