How would you do it?

For all of the Talk that doesn't fit elsewhere.

Moderators: caedmon, Greg

User avatar
Eric C
Vendor
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:02 am
Location: Central NC, USA
Contact:

How would you do it?

Post by Eric C »

Okay, here's the situation. You are a ranger that has taken up residence in a kingdom. The king knows of your presence and allows you to live there peacefully until war breaks out with a neighboring kingdom. The kingdom you live in is getting mopped up on the battlefield. The king summons you and asks you to start training special units- rangers- to help turn the tide of the war. Your duties would include scouting, possible espionage, harrassment of enemies whether on the march or in camp, surgical strikes against supply chains or to capture/take out enemy leaders, etc.

Who would you recruit first? The foresters/woodsmen/hunters for their knowledge of wilderness living? Soldiers who are already trained in the basics of combat? Or youths who have never had combat training and rather little wilderness training so you don't have any bad habits to break?

How large would an individual unit be? Mission would dictate this, I'm sure.

How would a unit be armed? As Rangers, I would say everyone would be more than proficient with the bow. Would there be spearmen, swordsmen, axemen? How would you do it.

Just kind of curious. And if you are wondering, yes, I am brainstorming ideas for the story that some of you have read in the Bard's Stage.
Ichthean Forge (pronounced Ick thee an). Maker of knives, and primitive camping gear.
User avatar
Peter Remling
Athel Dunedain
Posts: 3735
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:20 am

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Peter Remling »

If they are reporting to an army, they would not be exactly as we picture Tolkien's Rangers. They would be more like a semi-independent Special Forces group. With that in mind I'd keep them at a scouting team of three and strike teams comprised of several teams of three depending on the target.

Weapons: swords, daggers/knives, recurved short hunting bows.

Armor: studded leather or maille and small helms

As much of the time may be spent behind or close to enemy lines, cooking fires would need to be avoided making them carry prepared foods that can be eaten cold.
User avatar
Greg
Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
Posts: 4496
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Eriador; Central Indiana

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Greg »

OOO! Tactical scenarios! I've been meaning (for MONTHS now!) to punch up a situation and get some responses/open a discussion! We should make a regular habit of this!

As for my response:

I would look to the woodsmen/foresters of the area. They would be the most familiar with the terrain, regardless of the potential fact that they could have little to no combat experience. They would most likely be decent hunters already, which would lend them well to archery, which sounds just like the surgical strikes/raids you're looking for.

How to arm them? Concealment is key. Bows, naturally, would be the first step. Bow type/style? It'd depend entirely on how much fantasy and how much reality you want in things, as well as what sort of setting in history or historical base you're looking for. However, as far as practicality in the woods is concerned, I'd second Pete's suggestion regarding short recurved bows. Short and light, but they can still sling an arrow through armor like nobody's business...experience talking here.

I wouldn't go for trained soldiers because most trained soldiers of the medieval period all the way through the civil war, for the most part, were unfamiliar with guerilla warfare in its concept nor in its practice, save a few encounters with highwaymen and native americans using such tactics. For the most part, trained soldiers were trained for face-to-face encounters, line fighting, and generally combating with large forces using concerted movements instead of stealth and wit/trickery, which I believe is what you are going for. A character that is a trained soldier being brought into a group of guerilla fighters in the woods would be itchy to draw his longsword and charge into the thick of it for a prolonged face-to-face engagement, blowing everyone's cover.

That being said, bringing one or two such characters into the mix could be a good idea for storyline purposes, using that as a bump in the road that the group has to deal with, etc...but from a strictly realim standpoint, I say only recruit foresters for the initial unit. Start to work on the inexperienced youngsters or send occasional men from the unit itself to work on training them, but use that time to prepare them for manhood rather than dragging them into battle young and impressionable.

I like Pete's figures. Teams of three do well in a variety of combat scenarios. In my "other" hobby, which utilizes modified nerf guns to play a paintball-esque game in urban settings such as elementary school buildings and parks, I try to divide my team up into threes because there's generally a good balance of firepower, communication, and teamwork available. In a ranger's situation, there's an aspect of the buddy system available with three that there isn't handy with just two: if one is wounded, one can treat the injured while the other can keep a steady, un-distracted watch or go for help.

A surgical strike with, say, two teams of three at a choke point in a roadway can be easily and effectively pulled off. One team to each side of the roadway in good cover, all armed with bows, and the one in the front with a well-disguised but decently-sized round shield handy. All six fire at once for the initial element of surprise, cued a few yards after the last of the enemy's line passes the two groups. The reason it happens AFTER they pass is twofold: one, so that their backs are to the firing line, and two, so that the firing line is not pointed at the other squad across the way.

Once the initial hit happens, those NOT already shot will, unfortunately for themselves, not run away. They will turn around in an attempt to engage, buying your archers enough time to get off a second shot. The two archers in the front should, if the opponent has archers/crossbowmen, bring up his round shield to protect his squadmates while they continue to pick men off. As the last of the group is finished off (shouldn't take long...groups like this shouldn't be ambushing larger groups to avoid being pursued up the hill/engaged blade to blade, etc.) the archers should, ideally, fade back up the hill away from the site. No arrow collecting or looting; it'd leave material that could be used to track the Rangers.

I'm pretty much with Pete on the equipment. You might look to the Errol Flynn Robin Hood for some comical inspiration on the subject of ambushes.

Alrighty, essay over. That was quite possibly more detailed than you were looking for, but I LOVE the subject of tactics and planning, especially ambushes, so I figured I'd give ya about five bucks, as opposed to two cents, and see how it goes over. If anyone sees any holes/problems with my scenario, have at it!
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
Cinead
Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:38 am
Location: The Western Edge of Mirkwood...

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Cinead »

Intel is the key to any engagement. Period.

This is where Rangers shine.

Maille shirts only with a full coif.

Bows, but not recurves. I am a straight bow kinda guy. Straight, simple and not fiddly like a recurve. Lots of arrows. Say, 4 dozen per soldier. You will need a small pack train that can be hidden for a small amount of food and weapons, say 4 mules tops with a well seasoned handler.

10" bladed, single edged dirk, like a ballock dagger. Hand axe and short sword.

Why? the 10" blade is easy to carry, handy in the field and will flat out eliminate a sentry.

Hand axe. Hell of an offensive weapon but still easy to carry. Good for camp chores or splitting an orc skull.

A 12" bladed Seax, with a broad blade. Good in a scrap, excels in a shield wall, good as a camp knife or taking out a Haradrim......

Also, Rangers work well in sentry elimination. We are silent and we are invisible. That is where we shine.

If the Enemy has to be engaged, then in and out. Yes, surgical strikes.
Here I stand...unbowed, unbent, unbroken.
User avatar
Willrett
Thangailhir
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:36 pm
Location: Short Gap, WV

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Willrett »

Knowledge is the main weapon anyone can have. I think a combo would be the best plan. 5 man teams with a good mix of people. 2 local woodsmen/hunters, 1 trained soldiers, one untrained youth, and a ranger.

The ranger is the leader, and with his skill can support anyone that needs it.
The woodsmen would act as scouts and also should be good archers. they can carry a small 12-18 in blade and a buckler, as well as plenty of arrows.
The trained soldier will mainly be the protection for the archers, but can be used a camp attacker for night raids.
The untrained youth should have some hunting skills. he will help carry extra weapons and arrows but should also be able to use a bow or sling atleast well enough to cause a distraction. When possible he should be training and learning from the other members of the team.

Everyone should carry the weapons they are most comfortable with but a verity would be nice. With a well rounded group they could preform many different tasks, and the more groups the more options.
"Knowledge is a weapon. I intend to be formidably armed." Richard, the Seeker (Sword of Truth)"
User avatar
Eric C
Vendor
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:02 am
Location: Central NC, USA
Contact:

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Eric C »

Good answers so far! You're giving me a lot of info to digest here and come up with some form of working team.

As for channeling a unit in a bottleneck or some similar setting, when I was in the Army, we were in Hohenfels Germany. We were playing "the bad guys." Two M-1 Abrams caught an entire motorized rifle regiment- of which I was a part- in an area where they had a clear field of fire on us, but we could not even move to see them without getting blasted. A Major who had his vehicle shot out from under him commandeered our track. We sat for a while, then he ordered us to move. Pretty soon, our whoopie light went off signalling that we were dead. So, channeling an opponent can be very effective.
Ichthean Forge (pronounced Ick thee an). Maker of knives, and primitive camping gear.
Cinead
Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:38 am
Location: The Western Edge of Mirkwood...

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Cinead »

I am basing my earlier comment on the terrain in which I live (I am in Kentucky, very brushy, full of briars and wait-a-minute vines along with hard woods), I like to call it the wilds between Lorien and Mirkwood.

For me, a simple bow with lots of arrows, a 10" bladed single edged dagger, a hand axe with a 20" handle and a bearded handle along with a 12" broad bladed seax.

I can do whatever needs doing. Butchering, shelter making, sentry removal, survival and scouting.

Carrying a sword (for me) would be cumbersome in my woods and useless as a "tool". Any tool I carry HAS to be a tool first and a weapon second.

An axe and a seax are a devestating against light armor.

Unless forced to take on a heavily armored foe....I get in, get my info, remove if necessary and get the heck outta dodge.

I see rangers as an elite recon force and guerillas......one guerilla trains two, the two trains four and so on and so forth.....
Here I stand...unbowed, unbent, unbroken.
User avatar
Eric C
Vendor
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:02 am
Location: Central NC, USA
Contact:

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Eric C »

Good points about weaponry. As we've discussed before, a sword such as my Tinker with a wide upswept guard would catch on everything from here to Mirkwood. But it is an excellent choice on the open battlefield. Also on an open battlefield, you aren't going to need to provide your food - no need to butcher - as you will be a part of a larger army. When travelling alone or in a small group, light and dual purpose would be a great advantage for anything in your kit.
Ichthean Forge (pronounced Ick thee an). Maker of knives, and primitive camping gear.
Steve b
Dúnadan
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:20 am
Location: Southern CT

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Steve b »

Five man team- 2 soldiers, 2 woodsmen, 1 ranger/leader. I would not take an untrained youth on any mission. No way to know what the reactions would be or how skillful they aren't. Unknowns on a mission are a liability.

Basic pack- 3 days rations is about the max you can carry, using medieval tech. These would be for emergency only. The team would be expected to live off the land. Weapons maintainance kit, one blanket, oilcloak, firestarting kit, coin for bribing the locals (in this sort of scenario, the local peasantry mostly want to be left alone and don't care who wins because nothing will change for them. Money buys allegiance.) and spare shirt and hose.

Weapons- longbows for the woodsmen and ranger, they are used to using them. Crossbows for the soldiers, you can be trained in a day or so, at least to the level needed. Spike back axe for all- works as a tool, fighting axe, or spike to pierce armour. Fighting dagger for all. Short sword or hanger for the woodsmen, arming sword for the soldiers, baskethilted if the tech allows it. Two sheaves of arrows or bolts per man is the max you want them to carry.

Armour- Jacks of plate or brigandines. Light, open face helms.

The idea behind it all is to create a force that can move fast and light. Heavy armour or an excess of weapons will only slow that down. Keep the weaponry that each member of the team is used to. The soldiers can take care of any thuggery or heavy action needed, backed up by the woodsmen. The woodsmen can take care of the sneaking and ambushes, backed by the soldiers.

Hawk
User avatar
Taurthir
Wanderer
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Australia

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Taurthir »

Steve b wrote:Five man team- 2 soldiers, 2 woodsmen, 1 ranger/leader. I would not take an untrained youth on any mission. No way to know what the reactions would be or how skillful they aren't. Unknowns on a mission are a liability.
Commendable but with fault. The king asked you to "train" them not take people on missions that are picked freshly from the list so you have time to train them. Also no smart leader would take anybody with unless they had some skill thats been appraised or an importance for being there.


Though to consider that a military standing is still needed on the front to prevent the kingdom being overwhelmed. Keeping this in mind id divert many of the woodsmen to positions for training as rangers but id use a few to teach base skills to youths such as archery and tracking. This way you can get a firm resistance without taking it from your main military force and you can do long term training for youths so that they will be able to join the ranks of the rangers after enough time.

Training soldiers as rangers is not a great idea to me. Its the whole Boromir, Faramir scenario. Imagine making Boromir a ranger as he is and im sure it wont work. Well thats my thought anyway, feel free to twist, corrupt and destroy it.
"Let us together rebuild this world that we may share in the days of peace."
Taurthir of the Forest Guard. Yes my cloak needs some darkening
User avatar
E.MacKermak
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:01 am
Location: Lugoff, SC
Contact:

Re: How would you do it?

Post by E.MacKermak »

OK...here's my take:

Recruit a small company of woodsmen, preferably middle aged and experienced with a scattering of young men. Middle aged woodsmen have the patience the young just haven't learned yet, but you need the youth to assist where strong bodies will be necessary. You don't want to strip the kingdom army of all the woodsmen as they will be needed for scouts for the main army. Organize the company into 3-5 man teams with a solid older woodsman in charge. Utilize the small teams to harass behind the lines, remember that this is not a pitched battle force. It would be helpful if they can also ride to allow faster movement. Utilize these small teams to harass the supply lines and have some kind of plan for gathering the entire company for a major operation. You, as the experienced leader, should really be the command and control cell unless there is a big target you intend to use the whole company. Keep 5-10 guys with you, especially young ones who can ride as dispatch riders. The small teams report to you, you send info to the king's general. Prior to major battles, gather your company and when the opposing army moves from their temporary camp, you hit it and destroy or capture as much as you can. This forces the opposing general to leave more troops behind to guard his supply lines and makes the rank-and-file worry about what will be back at camp when he returns from the fight. Distracted soldiers are dead soldiers. Remember that your unit is a force multiplier, NOT a part of the pitched battle if you can avoid it.

Equipment: Mail, brigandine and/or lamellar (light, quiet, less restrictive, moderately protective); bows with at least 2 dozen arrows and more stashed in caches, the type of bow would depend on the area- recurves were designed originally to be fired of horseback, longbows would be just as effective dismounted; hand-axe (20-24" handle), langseax or falchion, good dagger - spears are great hunting weapons but in a fight they are best employed in a shield wall; each man carries enough equipment for 3 days at all times and the teams/company should maintain caches throughout the area

Remember that the best use for a unit of this type is as a long range scouting force, harrasment, and ambushing force. You really don't want to get into the thick of the fight. If your little company gets wiped out, the kingdom loses a valuable asset.

Sorry about the length.

Erich
Still round the corner there may wait a new road or a secret gate and though I oft have passed them by a day will come at last when I shall take the hidden paths that run west of the moon, east of the sun.
User avatar
Eric C
Vendor
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:02 am
Location: Central NC, USA
Contact:

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Eric C »

E.MacKermak wrote: Sorry about the length.

Erich
Ah, but the depth is what is important. 8) Yeah, these guys won't go into heavy combat for the most part.

Actually, with the main character NOT going into combat as much, but acting as commander/coordinator will come in handy later in the history of the story.
Ichthean Forge (pronounced Ick thee an). Maker of knives, and primitive camping gear.
Steve b
Dúnadan
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:20 am
Location: Southern CT

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Steve b »

Taurthir wrote:
Steve b wrote:Five man team- 2 soldiers, 2 woodsmen, 1 ranger/leader. I would not take an untrained youth on any mission. No way to know what the reactions would be or how skillful they aren't. Unknowns on a mission are a liability.
Commendable but with fault. The king asked you to "train" them not take people on missions that are picked freshly from the list so you have time to train them. Also no smart leader would take anybody with unless they had some skill thats been appraised or an importance for being there.
Ah. Confusing. I read it as training while still needing to carry out the missions. Nevertheless, I would not change the makeup of the units. I would also not recruit youths. I'm not a fan of the concept that late teens make the best soldiers. Too much action before thought, can't be killed mentality. Take the 25 year olds, who've had a chance to settle a bit. This kind of unit should be relying on deception and wits, fighting only when it is the only way out or it's a specific part of the mission.

Training should be hardship training. Long marches, survival stuff. I'd only train the new recruits with crossbows, unless they alreadywere bowmen. It takes years to properly train to a longbow, not something that can be done in a few weeks. Beyond that, train them to all the other weapons carried by the party. Lots of unarmed combat, stealth killing, sabotage, etc. Think SAS training.

Hawk
User avatar
Eric C
Vendor
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:02 am
Location: Central NC, USA
Contact:

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Eric C »

Actually, I am struggling with the training-time end of it. The main character is the only trained ranger at the outbreak of the war and that is because he trained somewhat in secret all of his life. The kingdom is accustomed to a fielded army. The force they face does not always field an army. The adversary would have plenty of trained rangers at the beginning of the war.
Ichthean Forge (pronounced Ick thee an). Maker of knives, and primitive camping gear.
User avatar
Willrett
Thangailhir
Posts: 1331
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:36 pm
Location: Short Gap, WV

Re: How would you do it?

Post by Willrett »

Eric have you considered maybe a 6 month or year submersion training. Say for example the invading force sent a small army to do as much damage as possible before the large army, the small army is mainly assassins, spies, and grunts. You have found out the the main invasion will begin in a year. Could you then take a group hunters, young untrained and some full trained soldiers. Pulled away from everything you know and you have to learn the skills needed. It would not be as good as a life of learning but it would be a good base.
"Knowledge is a weapon. I intend to be formidably armed." Richard, the Seeker (Sword of Truth)"
Post Reply