Dwarven Bounder?

From the Blue Mountains to the Iron Hills...

Moderators: caedmon, Greg

User avatar
Iodo
Thangailhir
Posts: 2112
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:58 pm
Location: North west england UK
Contact:

Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Iodo »

Yesterday at my archery club someone was asking me about my dwarven character, and I realised I don't have a way to discribe Iodo Ionite of Erebor, so:

My question is, can I call my character a 'dwarven bounder' or is bounder a word reserved specifically for hobbits?
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
User avatar
Peter Remling
Athel Dunedain
Posts: 3735
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:20 am

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Peter Remling »

The term bounder, as used to describe Hobbits, just means someone who patrols the borders. As Dwarves are primarily underground, I suggest something like watcher, watch, door guard or dweller, as in someone who watches openings into their cities/mines. These terms would refer to both those who cover the inside of the portals and those outside. I'd reason that they would do both in turn.
User avatar
Harper
Haeropada
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:11 pm

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Harper »

I echo what Peter said.

But since your character is operating above ground and performs functions similar to a Ranger, how about "Scout"? She can bring reconnaissance back to the Dwarven Kingdoms, help keep the trade roads clear, etc.
User avatar
Grimolt
Wayfarer
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:53 am
Location: Spokane, WA

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Grimolt »

I agree with Peter, Tolkien mentions bounders at the beginning of the Fellowship, in "The shadow of the past", during a conversation at The Green Dragon at Bywater. My impression is that bounders are a kind of hobbit border patrol group. At least they turn away people (or other creatures) that give them the creeps.

In the Fellowship, there is another place where Tolkien gives us a snippet that might serve you though...in "A journey in the dark", when they are trying to guess the password at the west door to Moria, during the conversation Gandalf says

"...These doors have no key. In the days of Durin they were not secret. They usually stood open, and doorwards sat here."

Ward being an archaic verb meaning guard, a door-ward then is a door guard. We know the dwarves had them, and it stands to reason that they could have what the common tongue calls border wards, or march (or mark) wards. Maybe some variant of that will serve you?

V/r

Grimolt
Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the sea.
User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Elleth »

Oh I like that!

Simply "Warden" perhaps?
That's probably safest.

Or "Hill-ward" or "Ravens' Ward" if one wanted to be a bit more creative?
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
Iodo
Thangailhir
Posts: 2112
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:58 pm
Location: North west england UK
Contact:

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Iodo »

WOW, What a lot of idea's, Thank you all :P

So, my options so far are:
  • Door Guard
    Watcher/Watch
    Dweller
    Scout
    Doorward/Borderward/Markward/Ward
    Warden
    Hillward/Ravensward
As Harper says, my character operates above ground patrolling Erebor and surrounding land so door guard and dweller are possibly not what I'm after, however I'm sure that Erebor would have an organized watch that I would definitely operate under. An I guess that at this point I have to think, what would the Erebor Watch be most likely to call the job of patrolling the land both over and surrounding the Kingdom?

Scout seems to be as good a description of Iodo's role as a ''bounder'', that's a definite possibility, however I really like all the ''ward'' terms as well. This is something I'll need to think about for a while :lol:
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
User avatar
Udwin
Vendor
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:00 pm
Location: central Kain-tuc-kee
Contact:

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Udwin »

I (personally) would associate the word Bounder with hobbits exclusively, but I think mountain-guard or something similar would work fine.
There is an authentic westron word that essentially means the same thing:
tudnas "guard" (a body of men acting as guards). Later tunnas, also so spelt; even later pronounced with a short (single) n, but still normally spelt with double nn; the incorrect spelling tunas occurred in the original Book of Mazarbul and was rendered by the equally incorrect spelling gard in Tolkien's reconstruction of this page (that did not make it into the published LotR). See PM:320 and TI:458.
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
Straelbora
Haeropada
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:00 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Straelbora »

Before the modern method of dividing real estate on a grid, the method was known as 'metes and bounds.' Some US states still have such measurements from colonial times.

"Beating the bounds" was a way for mostly illiterate communities to become aware of real estate divisions and to pass along this knowledge.

So a 'bounder' as a person patrolling and protecting a boundary seems, to me, to be more that just for Hobbits.
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á
feti ganga framar því at óvist er at vita
nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
Hávamál
User avatar
Harper
Haeropada
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:11 pm

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Harper »

Dwarven Warden of the Green?

Dwarven Forest Warden?

Dwarven Forest Reeve?
User avatar
Peter Remling
Athel Dunedain
Posts: 3735
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:20 am

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Peter Remling »

I like "warden" best. The title not only conveys someone who guards but also an official in charge of a specific area. This gives this bearer official authority to act. Not only would she guard against incursions but also have the authority to act in civil matters as well.
User avatar
Iodo
Thangailhir
Posts: 2112
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:58 pm
Location: North west england UK
Contact:

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Iodo »

Straelbora wrote:Before the modern method of dividing real estate on a grid, the method was known as 'metes and bounds.' Some US states still have such measurements from colonial times.

"Beating the bounds" was a way for mostly illiterate communities to become aware of real estate divisions and to pass along this knowledge.

So a 'bounder' as a person patrolling and protecting a boundary seems, to me, to be more that just for Hobbits.
Interesting, I guess I always thought Tolkien created the term. After a little research of my own I found this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_the_bounds
http://www.strangebritain.co.uk/traditions/bounds.html

and it would seem that ''beating the bounds'' is an old English tradition as well, however the people involved in this were often church wardens and not called ''bounders''.
The custom of Beating the Bounds, was once found in almost every English parish and besides its more usual name was also known as 'riding the marches', 'riding the fringes' or ' common riding'.
So perhaps ''rider'' as it clearly wasn't required to be on horse back in order to ''beat the bounds"?
Peter Remling wrote:I like "warden" best. The title not only conveys someone who guards but also an official in charge of a specific area. This gives this bearer official authority to act. Not only would she guard against incursions but also have the authority to act in civil matters as well.
I very almost agree with you, only I can't decide if this is getting to close to the role of ''sheriff'' for my liking?
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Elleth »

If one is wanting to stick closest to the old roots, "Sheriff" derives from "Shire-Reeve" and is if I recall correctly originally a glorified animal control officer - tracking down escaped livestock, identifying the owner, and perhaps issuing fines to repeat offenders. :)

I think Udwin's on the right track with tudnas/tunas for the word the Dwarves themselves would use, especially since it's linked as he says to the Book of Mazarbul - hard to get more canon than that.

For an English rendition, I continue to think Guard or Warden are closest in connotation to what you're looking for.
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
Iodo
Thangailhir
Posts: 2112
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:58 pm
Location: North west england UK
Contact:

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Iodo »

Your right Elleth, I think definitely something along the lines of Ward/Warden.

How about something along the lines of ''Surface-ward'', ''Surface-guard'' or ''Land-ward'' given that most dwarven roles would be below ground and operating on the surface would be a very defining and unique part of the job?
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
User avatar
Grimolt
Wayfarer
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:53 am
Location: Spokane, WA

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Grimolt »

Iodo,

I think it just depends on how you prefer to describe things, if that makes sense. For example, when we hear the voice of Tolkien's characters, we are hearing them translated from the languages they were speaking in their world, into the language we understand. So, when Tolkien as the translator gives us words to use, sometimes it's for that crucial bit of color that helps bring his world to life in our minds. So, I think you should absolutely use any type of descriptive language you like to describe what you do, and have a great time doing it.

If you are wanting to evoke a feeling of dwarvishness, you might check out semitic languages. Evidently Tolkien based his concept of Khuzdul from them. I did a little exploring in akkadian/english dictionaries, and I can definitely see the Semitic relationship to Khuzdul. That might be over the top though, lol!

What about using berg for mountain? Berg-ward?
Or use the more nordic Fjall/Fell? Fjall-vördr/ Fell-ward has a nice ring to it, and a fun double entendre, as fell also has that connotation of vicious deadliness to it.

V/r
Grimolt
Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the sea.
User avatar
Iodo
Thangailhir
Posts: 2112
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:58 pm
Location: North west england UK
Contact:

Re: Dwarven Bounder?

Post by Iodo »

Great stuff Grimolt :P I really like the term Fell-Ward, I might go with that.

Your language research is fascinating although I've already made the decision to keep terms I use in English. (I'm terrible at languages) since the dwarvish language was a secret language and only spoken to other dwarves, most of the people I meet above ground would not be dwarves so the language wouldn't be needed on patrol.
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
Post Reply