Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Western(esse) Martial Arts / Numenorean Martial Arts....

How Ranger's Fight

Moderators: Eric C, Greg

Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am

Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Elleth » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:55 pm

Hi all!

Could I get some archery advice?
I was back at it in the barn this afternoon (fun break!) and noticed a couple useful things, but I don't know what they mean.

Variables:
* Bow was a very light weight (15 lbs) flatbow we purchased for our godson to use when he was here. I've been using it lately so I can concentrate on my form with less fatigue.
* Arrows are still my regular arrows, spined about 45 lbs - so there's definitely a mismatch.
* Rather than concentrate on the target exclusively this time, I was trying to "feel" the arrow position and align it properly- I didn't use visual cues off the arrow point to aim.
* arrow left side of bow, mediterranean 3-finger release

Results:
* at a very close 3 paces, the arrows all landed pretty much on top of each other, but about 2-3" to the left of my point of aim.
* at 10 paces (about as far as I can manage in the barn) the group opened up a lot of course. I had pretty good grouping horizontally (4-6"?) but significant vertical stringing - a good 18-24" or so. Point of impact was about 8" left of my point of aim.


Tentatively I'm guessing the error to the left *might* be due to spine difference- or maybe my eyes could just be off (they actually are just a touch off axis from each other).

I did find by shifting my point of aim to compensate I could get arrows about where I wanted them.
The vertical stringing - my first thought was breathing, but rifle shooting has made the respiratory pause pretty much instinctive. I suppose I could be shooting with an inconsistent amount of air in my lungs though. Is that most likely? Could it be something else? Maybe inconsistent draw length?

What do you all think?


Onward! I'm gonna make my 2017 goal, darn it! :)
User avatar
Kortoso
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm
Location: San José, California
Contact:

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Kortoso » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:26 pm

I'm not much of an archer, but even with "instinctive" or subconscious archery, it does matter which eye you are using to look at the target. One shot you could be concentrating on the image in one eye, then shift to the other eye for the next arrow.

I don't know. Maybe this helps.
Middle Earth Rangers of the Bay Area
Dúnedain Rangers on Youtube
There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go.
User avatar
Peter Remling
Athel Dunedain
Posts: 3199
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:20 am

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Peter Remling » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:15 pm

You're probably right about the thicker spine throwing the arrows to the left. I'm assuming you're right handed.

The vertical difference could be a combination of these two things. First at 15 lbs the draw length s/b less than the standard 28". You are used to that draw length so you're effectively over drawing. This is putting a stress on the bow so it's "stretching " a little bit with each shot dropping the arrows proportionately.
Image
Xena and Gabriel The Early Years
Taurinor
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:06 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Taurinor » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:30 pm

There are folks far more knowledgeable than I am who will probably be more helpful, but one thing I've encountered that causes me to shoot left (other than spining problems, which seem to be the simplest explanation in your case) is my habit of over-rotating my bow arm elbow. If I don't watch it, the bony part of my elbow tends to point down to the ground, but proper form would have it pointing left.

Here's a picture of incorrect elbow positioning (top) vs correct positioning (bottom) from an article of a few common mistakes -

Image

This is something I just found out about that I wish someone had caught me doing sooner. Could be completely unrelated to why you're shooting left (like I said, the overspined arrows are a very likely candidate), but I figured I'd mention it.
Last edited by Taurinor on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Richmond Fantasy-Inspired Hiking and Camping (on Meetup and Facebook)
User avatar
Peter Remling
Athel Dunedain
Posts: 3199
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:20 am

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Peter Remling » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:57 pm

Taurinor wrote:There are folks far more knowledgeable than I am who will probably be more helpful, but one thing I've encountered that causes me to shoot left (other than spining problems, which seem to be the simplest explanation in your case) is my habit of over-rotating my bow arm elbow. If I don't watch it, the bony part of my elbow tends to point down to the ground, but proper form would have it pointing left.

Here's a picture of incorrect elbow positioning (top) vs correct positioning (bottom) -

Image

This is something I just found out about that I wish someone had caught me doing sooner. Could be completely unrelated to why you're shooting left (like I said, the overspined arrows are a very likely candidate), but I figured I'd mention it.



Blasphemy - The top incorrect elbow picture is Jeremy Renner (Hawkeye of the Avengers) Hollywood would never get it wrong so it must be a doctored picture. :P :P
Image
Xena and Gabriel The Early Years
User avatar
Greg
Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
Posts: 3353
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Up the Greenway; Southern Indiana

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Greg » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:35 am

Left-right issues are going to be spine related...your spine is waaay too stiff for that bow, so being off to the left is very much expected. Vertical issues would correlate to an inconsistent nocking point, and/or an inconsistent anchor point you're releasing from. Do you have any sort of indicator on that string? Are you holding at the same anchor every time? Does your hand shift at all during release?

"Which" eye you're using is a bit irrelevant here. If you're shooting instinctively, the arrow is barely perceptible in the foreground of the sight picture because the focus is downrange. To have an accurate focus downrange, you have to have depth perception. To have depth perception, both eyes must be open. Since the arrow is technically not being brought into the equation for "aiming", there isn't really a dominant eye other than the eye towards which you naturally tend...but both are a part of the equation.
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Elleth » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:44 am

Greg wrote:Vertical issues would correlate to an inconsistent nocking point, and/or an inconsistent anchor point you're releasing from. Do you have any sort of indicator on that string? Are you holding at the same anchor every time? Does your hand shift at all during release?


Ahahahahaha! I bet that's it! No, no nocking point on this bow. And I should know better! I have some down in the "bow stuff" drawer of the craft room, I'll see if that helps.

What do you do for a traditional bow and string? I assume wrapped thread or something around the right spot in the string?

re spine: I think since at each range the error is predictable, I may just live with it for a week or so, then try moving back to my recurve. At some point we'll need more kiddo arrows, and I'll make certain to fit them to this bow.

I'll also be sure to watch my elbow while I'm at it tomorrow.

Thanks all!
User avatar
Kortoso
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm
Location: San José, California
Contact:

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Kortoso » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:33 pm

With the abundant toxophilia found here, you would think this thread would be - at the least - a new sticky. Or some kind of new forum section.

Or here: http://www.middleearthrangers.org/wiki/ ... le=Archery
Middle Earth Rangers of the Bay Area
Dúnedain Rangers on Youtube
There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go.
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Elleth » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:46 pm

Kortoso - ha! I'd not heard that word. :)

Anyhow - thanks guys, that really helped!

I went back mostly to my recurve today, and the POA/POI discrepency pretty much went away. I mean, it didn't make me Legolas or anything, but my errors were at least clustered around where I was aiming. :)
Putting nocking points on the strings likewise mostly took care of the vertical stringing. In fact, it scared out another equipment issue I'd not given enough attention before.

I've been using 3 Rivers' "Robin Hood" bracer I'd gotten ages ago as a placeholder until I could make a nice one myself:

3-rivers-robin-hood-bracer.jpg
3-rivers-robin-hood-bracer.jpg (16.97 KiB) Viewed 905 times


As nice as it looks on the dude in the picture, in real life it tends to ride forward and bunch up around the hand. Which in turn "poofs" that thumb protection up and away from my hand. Which gives an inconsistent, unstable shelf for the arrow to sit on. I know for a fact a couple of my too-high misses today were due to that thing. When I take it off, I get more consistency at the cost of some fletching slices on my bowhand. So... find some snug garden gloves to cut up instead I guess.


At 12 paces, I'm mostly inside a 1' circle now. Not at all great, but creeping up on my (admittedly modest) goal for this year. Onward!
User avatar
Kortoso
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm
Location: San José, California
Contact:

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Kortoso » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:00 pm

I have that one too. What I've done is switch the binding around so that the loose ends are in the front rather than the rear. It means they get in the way a bit, and need to be tucked away, but it means that when I tighten it, the wrist gets tight before anything else. You may care to experiment with that.
Middle Earth Rangers of the Bay Area
Dúnedain Rangers on Youtube
There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go.
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Elleth » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:28 pm

Alright coach, here's a puzzle.
Using my regular recurve bow, arrows spined to it.
After a bit of warmup, I back off to twelve paces.

At first I try "concentrate on arm alignment" or "concentrate on release" and I'm all over the haybale.
Give that up, just tell my brain "that haybale is a screaming creature of darkness that wants to kill you" - groups tighten right up. Witchery! :)

Anyhow, here's a weird pattern from late in the session - center of red circle is point of aim.

merf-target-diagnosis.jpg
merf-target-diagnosis.jpg (29.13 KiB) Viewed 813 times


I THINK what might be happening is that maybe my bow arm is getting tired and wavering a bit shot-to-shot, giving that weird diagonal spread.
(I shoot bow in left hand, with a slight cant as I've no arrow shelf)

The group in the top right is weird. I can tell something is different as soon as the arrow leaves the string, but I can't tell what. Maybe I'm forgetting to check the arrow is snug against the nocking point? Maybe a flinch? I'm not certain...

Any experts seen this before?
User avatar
Kortoso
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm
Location: San José, California
Contact:

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Kortoso » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:17 pm

What I've been learning recently, is that I think of the hay bale as the screaming enemy threat, etc. when it's better to pick a tiny spot in the middle of the hay bale and make that my screaming enemy. Then my shots tighten up.
Middle Earth Rangers of the Bay Area
Dúnedain Rangers on Youtube
There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go.
User avatar
Greg
Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
Posts: 3353
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Up the Greenway; Southern Indiana

Re: Archery feedback / target diagnosis?

Postby Greg » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:09 am

Double-check your cock feather alignment. That could easily account for a consistent, precise, variation like that.

Alternatively, the fatigue may be showing in your drawing (right) hand. You may be "snatching" at the string as you release, which causes a side-to-side waver/wobble, which exaggerates the archer's paradox, causing the arrow to curve more significantly around the bow, and end up further to the right.
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.

Return to “WMA / NMA”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests