What's your preffered method of fighting for Rangers?

Western(esse) Martial Arts / Numenorean Martial Arts....

Combat and self-defense in Middle-earth

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Greg
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Post by Greg »

Chris Russo wrote:Since a lot of the Rangers on this board were leaning toward a sword around the size of a basilard/gladius/large seax, I'm curious to find out which style they'd use for a shorter blade like that.
My camera is still absent my house, so the stock photo of my short sword will have to do, but I use an Iberian-Styled Gladiator sword because it 1) has a leaf-shaped blade which I love for its Tolkien-parallel as much as personal preference in styling 2) has an unadorned, matte pommel with little to no decoration. It is quite light and fast, and has a whopping 17" blade, which is a beast in enclosed areas as well as more open areas when dealing with multiple threats.
Image
Its companion blade is a Kukri which I use in place of a buckler or main gauche, in my non-dominant hand. My current Kukri is dying (it's kinda in pieces...) so the one pictured below is one that I am currently discussing with a potential seller.
Image
This combination functions similarly to the "double-knife defense" described in Flanagan's "Ranger's Apprentice" series, which is, despite being aimed at younger audiences, quite a pleasant read. The "double-knife defense" is described as using a Seax in the right hand with a throwing knife in the left, and performing the majority of one's blocks with the pair of blades together in an x, with the smaller blade supporting the larger. Incoming thrusts are deflected to the side with one of the two hands, leaving the other open for a well-timed step forward and well-placed stabs throughout the torso and neck.

The difference here is that I've replaced the Seax with a 17" blade and replaced the "throwing knife" with a Kukri, which combine to give me a somewhat better reach as well as a harder vertical chopping motion, especially with the Kukri, which as we all know, functions much like a hand axe or small machete.

In keeping with the pattern of several posts in this thread, my order of weapon preference would have to be
1) Bow
2) Short Sword and Kukri
3) Spear/Staff

I've never been a large proponent of the spear or staff. I will freely admit that the reach one gives its wielder makes sparring/fighting against one a royal pain in the behind, but every time I've tried bringing one along, I've had to sacrifice so much for mobility that I don't find it worth it. If I were on horseback or was moving with a party of warriors with the expressed purpose of engaging a group, I might consent to bring a spear along, but I would probably find myself throwing it fairly soon instead of using it to engage opponents, or opting for my bow, and then moving straight down to my favorite melee blade pair.
Last edited by Greg on Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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hesinraca
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Post by hesinraca »

What's wrong with the one you have? Having graduated from college into a broken economy I find myself without much to do. I'd love a re-ferbishing project to practice my bladesmithing.......
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Greg
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Post by Greg »

Poorly tempered and bent down the middle, close to a 20-degree angle off of true. It got stepped on at base camp a month or so ago, and, well...yeah. My attempts at straightening it didn't go too well. The handle was cracking too, so I figured it'd be best to lay it to rest for awhile, until I finally invest in an Anvil. I may come back to it soon and see what I can do with it, but for the time being, I'm going with the new one. Besides, I was strictly informed that my christmas money was to be spent spoiling myself rather than on gas money/audio equipment for work, etc. so what better way, eh?
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hesinraca
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Post by hesinraca »

true enough. Well. If you decide you don't want to handle it I'd love to try and fix it. would be good practice.
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Greg
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Post by Greg »

I'll be sure to let you know should I decide to give up.

This brings up an interesting question in my mind...I've done some searching and seem to have come up empty. Perhaps Andy would be best able to answer this, but has anyone found reason in Tolkien's work for the Kukri to be considered authentic? I mean, I LOVE the blade...it's the best thing since sliced bread, and it can MAKE sliced bread, so how can you go wrong? It's a dagger, throwing knife, hatchet, tomahawk, machete, butter knife, and hammer all at the same time...but where in Tolkien (if anywhere) has it been found that they are middle-earth appropriate?

If they aren't, it's not going to change my use of them as I'm all for adaptibility and I could easily see them being made by the elves (I even wear mine across my back a la Aragorn's scimitar in the movies for easy access and keeping it out of the way) but I'm curious. Any thoughts?
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hesinraca
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Post by hesinraca »

I have a vague vague recollection of the Men of the Wild that flock to Mordor carrying a "somewhat large and heavy blade, with a peculiar curve". THat's not a quote but I want to say that I remember this description... anyone have a legitimate reference book of middle earth weapons? Mine's at my other home:-P
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hesinraca
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Post by hesinraca »

And as I typed that I realized I had the book in the attic here... Ok..

So, looking through this..

Aragorn's elven dagger from Lothlorien is like a stretched out kukri with a bowe tip.

Some of the orc weapons, though obviously cruder, are similar in shape. I will look around more...
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Post by Andy M »

Hey Greg,

To answer your question, no, I have not found any weapon close to the Kukri. BUT, although my drive is trying to keep it "historically" accurate to Tolkien, what's to say a Ranger on errand through another land didn't pick up a strange blade along the way. They are awesome tools. And it should be fun. You could always re-mount the blade into a more ME looking handle and make a different sheath.

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Post by Gareth »

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Greg
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Post by Greg »

That's always how I've looked at it. I first got interested in the Kukri playing Dungeons and Dragons (always as a ranger, mind you.) At LARP events I used to go to when I was in my early teens, people would ask me (while in character) where the strange blade came from, and I would reply something to the extent of "A trader selling wares in the Port City of Samid-Nas tried to swindle me, and when I drew my sword to get my money back, he attacked me with this. I spent the money he tried to con me out of on a pint that evening."

Hesinraca, what book does that description come from? The dagger Aragorn carries in the movies is essentially a short scimitar, without the secondary curve near the handle that gives it its falcata/axe/hammerlike shape, but I've never had a chance to dig through any Encyclopedias of Middle Earth really.

The heavy, strangely curved weapons I always assumed were similar to Orc Scimitars, but I suppose they could have been referencing something closely related to the Falcata.

Thanks for the info, everyone. I suppose if I want to encourage a healthy discussion here, I officially know which button to push: The Middle Earth Authenticity button.
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hesinraca
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Post by hesinraca »

ITs an encyclopedia referenceing actual material but with movie photos, "The Lord of the Rings Weapons and Warfare" by Chris Smith.

The description I don't recall where from but the picture of aragorn's blade was in that book
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Post by Steven S. »

I purchased the above book, and was sadly disappointed in it. The movie photos were great, but the actual information was sub-par in that it was not true to Tolkien in many cases or to actual truths about weapons and armour. In other words, I wouldn't suggest using it as a "historical" encyclopedia of middle earth, but (as afore mentioned) the pictures are nice for ideas.
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Post by DavidMc »

A few random thoughts before I get into my own preferences (for I surely wouldn't want to carry all of these at the same time).

Long-range I would go for long bow or some kind of recurve. The long bow has a venerable history dating back to neolithic times in Europe. The recurve makes an appearance in Ireland and Scotland sometime in the late Middle Ages (which may be a little late) but could fit in nicely enough nonetheless.

Spear: I hear what people are saying about spears, but the spear was nonetheless the primary weapon of most early European cultures. While some would clearly be unsuitable for ranging (long spears/pikes as used in phalanxes/chiltrons whatnot) the standard size from the iron age through to the Viking age seems to have been around eight feet long. These were cultures that were well used to woodland living. A second option is that which is found in Ireland from early Christian times (at least) through to the late Middle Ages: the short spear. This was used with a small shield, and seems to have been quite effective. Considering Ireland's longstanding tradition of forest-roving bands (from the Fianna to the "woodkernes") this seems a lively option.

Axe: Enough has already been said by others as to why this is an excellent choice, although a camp axe and a warrior's axe are different beasts...

Sword: As some have already said, rangers were more than wood scouts in Tolkien. They were also able warriors on the field. I expect that, on campaign, they would be as well outfitted as any other fighting man and see little reason to set any limits. In the context of "ranging," it's harder to say. Sword and buckler (as in 1:33) seems appropriate in that the bucker is fairly light and can be suspended from the hilt of the sword itself. Ideal for traveling lightly. On the other hand, hand and a half swords-- even two-handed swords-- were used by peoples (such as the later Irish, Scots and various Scandinavian peoples) who fought in precisely the same conditions one would expect in Eriador, say. While the extra length would take getting used to, it still seems a good option, especially as no shield is required. The only combination I would not expect to find in long-ranges on foot would be sword with full shield (which is fairly weighty).

Long Knives (whether seax or others): Another venerable tradition, especially for archers and spearmen and axemen. If it's heavy enough it could be quite versatile around the camp as well.

So... My own preference would probably be bow (for hunting as well as fighting-- versatility is important) and sword/buckler OR longsword with long knife of some kind, as well as standard utility knife. The sword (or sword/buckler combo is the only item above that is extraneous to non-combative ranging, (although one could possibly do without the long knife).

My thoughts, anyway. In real life I take a stout walking stick, knives and kukhri with me when I'm roughing it.
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Greg
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Post by Greg »

I can see the advantages of a sword-buckler combo, but has anyone tried/gotten into paired blades? I'm a pretty big fan of a short sword-kukri combo.
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Post by Faolan »

My strength seems to be with the sword/dagger combo. When I trained in SCA Rapier fencing I did both Florentine (2 swords) and rapier/dagger. I don't seem to do so well with sword/buckler.
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