What's your preffered method of fighting for Rangers?

Post by **Eledhwen** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:37 pm

In the SCA my greatest strength is shortsword & small round, that is, 24" diameter. I've used that combination for 30 years or so. I also find it easy to use shortsword and axe, so the longknife tomahawk combination is a good one.

Then there's the staff; since I am studying that in martial arts it is rapidly becoming a mainstay. I'm told spear will be built on it when we get to that.

For the moment though, longknife or shortsword with a tomahawk or shield works best with me.

Siani

Willrett · Post by **Willrett** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:01 am

It will depend on the the situation but I'm liking the knife or short sword and hand axe. I am a big fan of the hand and a half sword was well maybe with a small buckler.

Post by **Greg** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:11 am

The biggest problem I've had with the two blades I love so much is that I find myself using my secondary hand to assist the larger blade's movement, basically using my short sword like a hand-and-a-half. I've always been most proficient when both my hands are on the hilt, but I don't care to carry something big/long enough to exploit that technique to its greatest advantage. On the flipside, using a shorter sword like a hand-and-a-half or two hander is severely hindering the possibilities that weilding my sword with a single hand might offer, as well as eliminating the possibilities my second blade or a buckler might provide.

Anyone have any thoughts/suggestions?

Post by **Cinead** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:55 pm

Having spent a LOT of time in the woods....I feel that any tool should be able to double as a weapon.

I like a combo of a long knife and bearded belt axe. For a heavy weapon/tool and long axe. I also carry a small neck knife.

Let me explain. A 9" blade and a belt axe with an 18" handle is a fast, fast combo suited for guerilla raids in the woods......fast.....and heavily offensive.....it allows you to get in and out FAST with two attacks.

Then, the same weapons double as a tool around the camp....from preparing game to pounding tent stakes. A long axe is Heavily offensive against larger foes.....wargs, trolls and other mounts and large creatures. It also extends your range and reach.

I see we rangers as scouts and guerilla fighters. Attacking from a distance whenever possible with ranged weapons and coming to grips in hand to hand when forced, with speed and ferocity in and out as fast as possible, with as many attacks at many different locations.

The long knife is a stabbing tool. A puncture is a MUCH worse wound than a slash. The belt axe is devastating against light or unarmored foes. This combo is also FAST! Also, the hammer poll allows for a back handed attack....if you don't think it will cause massive damage.....try a test.....smash the hammer poll, backhanded, against a set of raw pork ribs.....you will be amazed at the hemmoraging and bone breaking power....

Now, historically the belt axe/long knife combo was THE combo for the american woodsman in the 18th and early 19th Centuries. There are many reports of the british troops tossing aside their sabres in favor of a smallish axe. Why? The sabe is just too hard to wield in the woods....esp. in the eastern woods here in KY.

This is just has worked for me, in no case to I make the claim that it is definitive.....

I think a sword in the woods CAN work.....but I would favor a seax style blade with a blade NO longer than 20".......I just forged one for myself last year 2" wide 12" long blade and 1/4" thick......but it needs the heat treat and handle (which I will do when it warms up a bit).

Gareth · Post by **Gareth** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:36 pm

Pwyll · Post by **Pwyll** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:17 pm

I love the short sword and dagger combination, no doubt a legacy of much escrima work. But sword and buckler works much the same way, as far as body movements. And as Gareth says, shield punching is a lot of fun...er, except when being done by your opponent. Then it sucks.

Oh, and the edge of a buckler is also great for striking exposed limbs, a lot of fun...er, see my previous comment...

If you take a loot at MS I.33 and the different positions, and then think of the movements required to transition between them, you can see the same sort of movements you see in some escrima exercises. In I.33, the buckler is primarily used to guard the sword hand, and this works well, with either buckler or dagger. As for the sword type, I would prefer some type of messer, somewhat like a machete, suitable for use as a tool as well as weapon.

Post by **Greg** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:12 am

While I'm asking for advice here...we've all laughed before at some point watching hollywood duels with blades clanging together edge-to-edge. My question is, in practice with wasters, edge-on-edge contact still happens regularly. If I'm using a single-edged blade, while I'm trying to break the habit of blocking edge-on, should I be trying to block with the flat of the blade, or the thick backside? Which is going to allow my blade to last the longest/keep it from being sheared off? I suppose the last part has a great deal to do with how it was tempered...but input would still be nice.

Pwyll · Post by **Pwyll** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:03 pm

LOL That, my friend, will start all kinds of arguments, with passions running very high.

In general, you want to block with the flat. Trying to block with the back would be pretty awkward. That being said, there are a lot of times you'll block with the edge, simply because things happen so fast.

And some times, you just can't avoid it.

It's very important to make sure when you do this, that you aren't holding the blade in such a way that your wrists are weak. The answer to that, of course, is practice.

My personal recommendation would be to find an ARMA group in your area, if there is one. ARMA does a lot of nice research and study, and has a very realistic approach to training. The downside is that ARMA bases the whole study on the longsword, and then branches out from there. There's nothing wrong with this approach, and the longsword is a blast, but my personal interest is with sword and dagger or buckler.

But that's only one approach, and others will say different.

mcapanelli · Post by **mcapanelli** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:10 pm

Pwyll wrote:LOL That, my friend, will start all kinds of arguments, with passions running very high.

In general, you want to block with the flat. Trying to block with the back would be pretty awkward. That being said, there are a lot of times you'll block with the edge, simply because things happen so fast.

And some times, you just can't avoid it.

It's very important to make sure when you do this, that you aren't holding the blade in such a way that your wrists are weak. The answer to that, of course, is practice.

My personal recommendation would be to find an ARMA group in your area, if there is one. ARMA does a lot of nice research and study, and has a very realistic approach to training. The downside is that ARMA bases the whole study on the longsword, and then branches out from there. There's nothing wrong with this approach, and the longsword is a blast, but my personal interest is with sword and dagger or buckler.

But that's only one approach, and others will say different.

Sound advice. I couldn't have said it better myself. Remember that the reason they teach Longsowrd first is that all of the footwork is based on it. When you learn it and move to a different weapon you don't have to reinvent the wheel as far as body movment and muscle memory is concerned. As for the orignal question, yes you will sometimes take a block on the edge, but this is more of an "Oh S@#$" responce then anything. With time and practice this will become less and less frequent. I find that even in free play now It's become increasingly rare for me to do that. All in all it just comes down to how much your willing to practice to get it right.

Pwyll · Post by **Pwyll** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:59 pm

Oh, yes, and starting with the longsword is a good approach for taht very reason. Meyer does the same in his "Art of Combat", and that book is pretty much an entire martial arts system. No question, the longsword is a good place to start.

I get a kick out of how you see the same things, the same movements, again and again. How I do a squinter with the longsword, and then find myself doing it with a messer. How my parry and counter with sword and dagger is mirrored doing dagger and empty hand. The structure and logistics remain the same, even when range and time change.

Post by **Greg** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:53 pm

Very helpful; thanks, guys!

The extent of my martial arts training is limited to 3 1/2 years of Tae Kwon Do back in 1st through 4th grade. Virtually useless to me now. The only aspect of rangering combat techniques I'm really competent in is Archery. Swordplay has always been fun to me, but has never been a trained art, so I must remain honest that I'm by no means an expert. I'm proficient for my purposes, with my group of people, but I'm sure I'm far from well-versed. Someday, I'd love to try my hand with a few of you and see how far behind I really am...*chuckles*

Willrett · Post by **Willrett** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:44 am

Greg, Im in the exact same situation as you. I had 2 years of kung fu 18 years ago but I just started shooting archery this year. One day when I when the lotto I will got alot of these trainings and schools people have talked about on this site.

KerryTracker · Post by **KerryTracker** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:55 am

Stonedog wrote:Having spent a LOT of time in the woods....I feel that any tool should be able to double as a weapon.

Excellent point. You got me rethinking some things. I have always balked at the thought of a long blade banging into things while in the woods. I have tried it and never found a way to carry it effectively.

Second thought is of the Roger's Rangers or Francis Marion during the American Revolutionary War. They used the knife, axe and of course the rifle. It worked for them in the real world. Few of them would carry the sword.

Lately, I have been focusing on the long Seax as the secondary weapon after the bow. It is dual use in campcraft. I like the larger handle that facilitates use with both hands.

Your comment has gotten me to rethink that large knife and axe option.
I would imagine that carrying a bow, Seax, axe and knife would be over kill. Now that I am in my 40s, my days of carrying 35# of weapons and ammo plus the 85# ruck is over. I try to keep things light.

Thanks for your post.

Post by **Eledhwen** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:51 am

I like the notion of a spearhead kept in the pack or a sheath; it can be readily affixed to a pole at need. The right knife can be too of course, but it wouldn't be as efficient in my opinion.

I still like the belt axe/tomahawk with longknife combination; the long knife could be a seax or some other type. And of course my horsebow.

But I do like swords; I've had a thing for them for years. Since I can't galavant around in the woods with one here, I've only managed to wear it at SCA events out of state, like Pennsic, and that's not the woods so I have to rely on the wisdom of my brother Rangers. Carting a rattan sword around the woods battle in armor isn't quite the same thing.

As for age and keeping it light...yes, this 52 year old definitely likes keeping the load down. LOL

Siani

Mirimaran · Post by **Mirimaran** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:13 pm

I think the best answer for creeping age and a heavier pack is simple:

get an apprentice