Some musings on longswords and rangering.

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Ursus
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Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Ursus »

Longswords tend to be a headache for some on the forum and I believe there to be a good deal of misinformation about the concept of woodland sword carry floating around. In this discussion I will be addressing several topics that tie into carrying a sword in the woods. This will include, length and weight, usage, and tips for getting used to wearing and carrying your blade. Im going to start with the length and weight issue. Now, as a ranger who prefers a longsword/warsword Ive been kind of put out at the wealth of misleading info on the forum. The popular concept is that they are awkward in the woods, that they tangle and bang about, that they are heavy and awkward, and that they are not accessible for defense in tight places. On every point this is true, but only because the people carrying them arent properly trained, havent worn them enough, and havent pursued the proper educational material. On the point of tangling and banging about. What this tells me is that the ranger hasn't worn a longsword that often in the woods and hasnt spent much time practicing proper navigation through the woods. A longsword is no more in the way than a bow or longrifle, the trick is picking your path well and not just crashing through the undergrowth. A ranger should always move over country quietly, and leave no sign. In fact, when suspended properly swords are well out of the way and catch on things far less than many rangers packs, cloaks, quivers, and slung bows. At this point in my life I think I've worn a sword every way possible. Ive used back slings, baldrics, a variety of frogs that hold it vertical and at various angles, used mulitple belts that wrap around the body and so on. The best overall suspension in my opinion is one that lets the sword be worn at an angle and be removed from the belt easily via buckles or a frog of some variety. To get used to wearing a longer blade and to keep up on it myself I encourage wearing it as much as you are able. It isnt uncommon for me to wear my sword around the house whilst doing house work, or around my shop while working. Trust me if you can cook and clean in a small kitchen as I do without banging you scabbard about you can do it in the woods.

The next one I see the most is the issue of weight and length. Longswords and swords of war are heavy right? Wrong. Now if we take the advice of the fencing masters of old we can sort this mess out quite easily. Many master of defense give us tips for choosing the length of a longsword. The most common is that the length ought go from the floor with the pommel being level with your navel. I wouldnt be suprised to find that many rangers who carry longswords do not carry ones that are properly sized and weighted. For the issue of weight we must again turn to history. Most longswords and swords of war weigh between 2.5 to and 5ish lbs. This depends heavily on the swords build and function. My personal sword for example is a sword of war, epee de guerre, or if you prefer Oakshotts typology is in the type XIII family and weighs in at 4 3/4 lbs. Its style and shape fits well in Middle Earth. One vital point is that these types of early longsword are still able to be used with a shield. I train regularly with my warsword and a round shield. Many could not use a sword this size and weight with a shield, but this sword was tailored to my large size and height. This is one reason I imagine Anduril so as Aragorn and I are of a similar height and build. A sword that is 50 inches and 4 3/4 lbs to me is the rough equivilant to an average heighted person wielding something around 42-45 inches and 2 1/2 to 3 or so lbs. The ideal road for choosing a sword is to save up and go custom. This allows you to tailor a weapon to your size and weight requirements. This was the main reason I went down that road and it was two years of saving and two more of waiting. I realize for many this is not an option. The best runner up is to secure a blade blank with historical specs and have it properly hilted.

Moving on Im going to discuss the usage of a larger sword in the wild. The reason I prefer a longsword in the wild is the versatility. A rangers gear including their weapons should be able to multitask. The reason I do not carry an arming sword is focused on one main problem and it is this. As far as combatives goes with an arming sword of the type that fits in Middle Earth, it is only at its full capacity when used with either a shield or a buckler. A dagger in the off hand will get you through single combat just fine, but if its more than one opponent or a small skirmish you are going to be more much more disadvantaged. There are of course sources for the use of an arming sword alone but the swords are historically sized and weighted to be used with a round dark age type shield in a shield wall. So to my way of thinking, why carry a blade that I have to carry additonal objects to bring it to its full capacity and adds bulk and size to my pack? A rangers gear should multi task while streamlining your gear. The longsword is the shield and its training gives me the ablity to use elements of polearms via half-swording, the longer guard gives me elements of a warhammer to punch with and to bind with and the heavier pommel gives me elements of a mace. Half-swording allows me to tuck in and use it tactically in tight spaces. One of many arguments Ive heard is that a longsword cant be used in tight places. This is true for the most part. As previously said I can half-sword in tight places if pressed but my combative mentality is to not draw my sword at all in tight places but my dirk and use a combination of that and to hand combat. Prior to all that though is that I would never choose ground to fight on that was overly dense to begin with and if I was somehow ambushed then I have failed in my trade as a tracker and ranger as a whole. In short, dense, tangled woodlands and enlosed places arent for swords of any variety, one has to choose ground suitable for sword combat. The likely hood of being ambushed on dense ground is small as it gives the enemy no room to move either. So anywhere that it comes to a fight via ambush will likely be favorable to sword combat.

Now to climb down off my soapbox I want to say this. Swords to the warrior breed are very personal. The thoughts above are only a very small musing on my prefernce for one style of blade. In the end a ranger should carry what sword makes them comfortable. I love swords as a whole, and own nearly one of every type. I plan to write more on other types that apply to the ranger and why I would prefer them if it were my main style with the same fervor I feel for longswords. For those that prefer longswords and those that dont I hope this proved helpful and educational.
Last edited by Ursus on Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Greg
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Greg »

Interesting thoughts, based on experience. Good writing.

I will say I didn't have the best experience with carrying a longsword my first time, but I will also say that, like you said, swords are personal. The main reason for my not carrying a longsword is that, quite simply, I prefer an arming sword.

All swords can get tangled in the woods...the inherent design is something sticking out ahead of you and trailing behind, so if you aren't aware of your pommel, it will snag things, no matter the size of the blade. Choosing a good path helps this, but you aren't always blessed with that option, so WHEN your sword gets caught up, don't automatically blame it or yourself...you may not have had any other option. I've been there; terrain varies widely.

I'll disagree with you on the use of the longsword in tight spaces, but I will do so in favor of the longsword, actually. Tight spaces can, in some cases, virtually eliminate flanking maneuvers, and reduce combatants to head-on engagement. Here, the extra length makes it a force multiplier, and keeps an opponent out at sword's length, with little room to even turn the point aside...an advantage made more complicated by a short sword. I might argue that tight spaces are actually complicated by a small blade for this reason. The initial issues most have with a longsword in tight spaces stem from a lack of ability to fully swing, but this ability to hold one off as with a spear or pike is valuable and even desirable.

Ultimately, it should come down to what you prefer to use, rather than what you think works in the woods...but I will happily say I have an easier time because of my shorter sword, in my own experience. Good talk!
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Ursus »

Greg wrote:Choosing a good path helps this, but you aren't always blessed with that option, so WHEN your sword gets caught up, don't automatically blame it or yourself...you may not have had any other option. I've been there; terrain varies widely.


Very true. Here in IL the wild honeysuckle are a major problem for movement and has become a major invasive species. Yet still I never really have issue choosing a path or going around a rough patch, sometimes it just means back tracking or making a wide detour.
Last edited by Ursus on Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Ursus »

Greg wrote: I'll disagree with you on the use of the longsword in tight spaces, but I will do so in favor of the longsword, actually. Tight spaces can, in some cases, virtually eliminate flanking maneuvers, and reduce combatants to head-on engagement. Here, the extra length makes it a force multiplier, and keeps an opponent out at sword's length, with little room to even turn the point aside...an advantage made more complicated by a short sword. I might argue that tight spaces are actually complicated by a small blade for this reason. The initial issues most have with a longsword in tight spaces stem from a lack of ability to fully swing, but this ability to hold one off as with a spear or pike is valuable and even desirable.
All good points, and true. But as I said a good fighting knife(in my case a dirk) trumps all swords in a tight place. In many cases trying to stay out of range is a bad thing. Many novice swordsman do this by doing the awkward "leap backwards and strike" or "tag" fighting instead of seeking the bind properly and closing. The goal in combat should always be to close as aggressively as possible with an opponent, set aside their weapon and strike them down efficiently.
Last edited by Ursus on Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Ursus »

Greg wrote:Ultimately, it should come down to what you prefer to use, rather than what you think works in the woods...but I will happily say I have an easier time because of my shorter sword, in my own experience.

Again we agree it has to work for the individual, my love for my arming sword is just barely beat out by my love for my longsword. The main focus of this post was to be educational for folks of longsword preference. Fun fact, the Walpurgis I.33 was actually the very first form of swordsmanship I learned way back in the day and is a prerequisite in my classes for students to advance to learning the longsword. My next topic is going to be on arming swords and short swords but will be several weeks in the typing.
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Ursus »

And I'm just going to save everyone the effort and say this, I suck at doing quotes.
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Eledhwen »

I've used many, of all sizes and weights. I've even gotten pretty fair with the shamshir, which isn't a specifically mounted weapon at all, but very, very, nasty at close quarters, with or without buckler or dagger.

Despite that, I'll stick with my short sword. No experience of mine with any of the other styles, tomahawk and knife included, beats it. I'm partial to the Numenóreans and they carried shortswords. I suspect those looked less like mini-longswords or arming swords and more like a gladius or Celtic sword, given they obtained the craft from the Elves in the first place.

I rarely carry a sword in any case as they are 1.) Illegal here, entirely, 2.) not terribly useful in the modern forests of these parts, and 3) I'm not getting any younger and am broken in a lot of places. OTOH, my bow and hunting knife are useful...I hunt with them. I practice stealth in a variety of ways, tracking, reading sign...I am very, very good at those. Mountaineering.

As you say, very personal and subjective subject. I have never liked longswords in truly close quarters such as brush and saplings. Even my DelTin, which weighs a bit over a pound and is sized right for me, is not my preferred piece in the forests.

I suspect there will a host of different notions on this topic. Good one!

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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Greg »

Ursus wrote:And I'm just going to save everyone the effort and say this, I suck at doing quotes.
Fixed them for you. The code should look like this, with the name at the start, and the /end label only at the end:

Code: Select all

[quote="Ursus"]Quoted text here[/quote]
That will, when posted, read like:
Ursus wrote:Quoted text here
To do it easily, hit the quote button on the top right corner of the post you want to quote (right next to where the Edit button is on your own posts), and it'll take you to the posting screen, and will already have their whole post there. You can then take sections out that don't pertain to your response as needed.
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Ursus »

Thank you! Tis hard to juggle a toddler and order your thoughts into a post without messing up something lol. All worth it though.
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by RikJohnson »

I've always carried a heavy broadsword,
Image
this modified Oscar kablomovich blade being my favorite. I had the tank lengthened, the decorative garbage removed from the guard, then I rebuilt the handle added rayskin and made a pommel I liked (the original design was a very fancy knight's templar blade) then made a scabbard that has seen a LOT of wear.

BUT, for infighting nothing beats a good short-sword! I have a few I like: A Hanwei Celt design that I modified and a MRL Kindjal that I also like. When mundane hiking I carry an Enfield Bayonet as my knife-of-choice.

So when Period traveling, I tend to carry the blade over my back with a shortsword at hip. IF I think I will need the blade, I will move it to hip but is surprised, I can draw a short sword and move in fast. If I have warning, I can set the broadsword and have time to be ready.

THEN I took a class on the Longsword and fell in love! I bought the versions & matching daggers from Cold Steel and a Practical Longsword from Hanwei plus a coule trainers (one polypro fro mCS, the other from Sword Buyers forum). And this is now my 'distance weapon' of choice as I don;t have to haul a heavy shield. Of course, on the line, a good broadsword cannot be beat.
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Rifter »

Nice to read, as someone who prefers to carry a sword and use that more readily then a bow I rather enjoyed your points. Thanks
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by Kortoso »

Very interesting thoughts, well thought-out all round.

From military training, I know that two primary concerns before choosing weaponry are: Mission and Opponent capabilities. In the case of a Middle-Earth ranger, I'd assume that I am scouting against orkish forces. Depending on the strength (numbers, weapons, apparent morale) or the enemy (and of my own forces as well), I encounter, I might choose to adapt to a intelligence-gathering mode, a guerrilla ambush mode, or an all-out attack.

At any rate, I would choose my weaponry based on that, and on what my fellow rangers can be depended on to wield. The Professor reported that the Ithilien rangers carried both bows and spears, which suggests that they would support each other's capabilities.

Getting back to swords. I have a type X single-hander, which if worn correctly, presents much less impediment to overland travel than do my bow and quiverfull of arrows. I often find that my arrows are continually hanging up in branches and the like, and that's just roving along the practice range. On the other hand, when I carry my one-hander, I sometimes forget that it's there. The cross-guard could be replaced by something more low-profile, but it's not urgent.

I question whether a sword is best as a first weapon or as a backup. Arrows will work against a long-range target, but can't be expected to immediately stop a determined foe. I'd drop back to my sword to finish them off, or to fight a truly determined attacker. I have confidence in this little sword, since I've done cuts with it that I have seen others struggle with, even when armed with claymores or katanas.
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Re: Some musings on longswords and rangering.

Post by E.MacKermak »

Finally got the time to read through this and figured I might weigh in on it. I agree completely with Ursus on the nature of the longsword. These are not the Conan-esque swords of the movies and, with the proper training, are well equipped to handle many situations on the battlefield. That being said, they are a war sword ultimately developed in a time when plate armors were becoming more common and largely used by skilled warriors on the battlefield. There are plenty of examples for their use at other times as the fechtbuchs show a lot of working without armor. However, they are a product of their time. If you like them, use them. Learn how to carry it in a forest; it is certainly no worse than carrying your bow or spear as the Gray Company apparently did. Remember though that much of the influence for carrying a longsword by rangers is based on the movie. As I recall in the book, Strider carried only the broken blade Narsil until the Fellowship leaves Rivendell. He goes on to use the sword with a shield at the battle of the Hornburg which, IN MY OPINION, implies more of an arming sword. Opinions vary.

My personal preference is something entirely different; the falchion. Basically, this is a short, heavy bladed, chopping weapon similar to today's machete but with blade 20-24 inches long, a crossguard and pommel. The weapon carries well, either on my side or strapped to a pack, and is easy to learn. Using it with either a long knife, tomahawk, or buckler adds little weight to your kit and will protect you when they enemy has closed to within bow range. Some of the same fechtbuchs that teach longsword teach the use of the falchion both with and without the buckler. In a pinch, it can actually be used as the agricultural tool it resembles.

As already stated here, the choice of sword is very personal. Having practiced a bit of melee work, I like to have a shield in a big fight regardless of the sword I carry. I have started working on learning the German longsword technique and hope to continue on this path as I really like the weapon. Just not my personal first choice for ranger work.


EMK

*A little research and I found that in South Carolina I can openly carry pretty much ANY bladed weapon. There are local ordinances to sort out but there appear to be none in my county. Can carry a sword on the street legally here.
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