Middle Earth and Helmets
- Greg
- Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
- Posts: 4496
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
- Location: Eriador; Central Indiana
Middle Earth and Helmets
Alrighty, the discussion got going in the Rangery Christmas Gifts thread, so I'm bringing it over here to keep things on topic and such.
*ahem*
I got a Suarloaf (seen below) for Christmas. I think it might be a little late period for Middle Earth, but at the same time, the helmet I'm in the process of MAKING seems a bit late, too.
The one I'm making is loosely based off of the visored helms from the 2010 Robin Hood flick. The premise behind the helmet was to have a good, simple, but solid full-face visored helm that would do well for heavy combat on horseback. I'm not much of one for wearing a full-face helm while on foot...too much of a restricted view. But on horse, the facial protection could be invaluable.
Anyone have any thoughts on a Sugarloaf within Middle Earth, period-wise, etc? I always kinda pictured Middle Earth helmets being norman nasal pointy-type jobs. Mine looks like this, minus being all shiny and whatnot.
Any other historical helmet designs that might seem to fit the bill? The classic barbute comes to mind as something simple and practical, but I don't know if it fits within the designs, etc. of Tolkien's history or not.
*ahem*
I got a Suarloaf (seen below) for Christmas. I think it might be a little late period for Middle Earth, but at the same time, the helmet I'm in the process of MAKING seems a bit late, too.
The one I'm making is loosely based off of the visored helms from the 2010 Robin Hood flick. The premise behind the helmet was to have a good, simple, but solid full-face visored helm that would do well for heavy combat on horseback. I'm not much of one for wearing a full-face helm while on foot...too much of a restricted view. But on horse, the facial protection could be invaluable.
Anyone have any thoughts on a Sugarloaf within Middle Earth, period-wise, etc? I always kinda pictured Middle Earth helmets being norman nasal pointy-type jobs. Mine looks like this, minus being all shiny and whatnot.
Any other historical helmet designs that might seem to fit the bill? The classic barbute comes to mind as something simple and practical, but I don't know if it fits within the designs, etc. of Tolkien's history or not.
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
I really like that helm. If I were you, I'd put wings on the sides and pretend it's a Numenorean design.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
- Jonathan B.
- Amrod Rhandir
- Posts: 448
- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:57 pm
- Location: South Florida
- Contact:
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
See here is where the problem lies. What is period for Middle Earth? It's my understanding that Tolkien was trying to create a Mythos for the British isles like what the Norse, Germanic, and Finnish had.Which to me implies Dark ages at the latest but could be pre-Roman.
Last edited by Jonathan B. on Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Beornmann
- Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
- Posts: 329
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:57 pm
- Location: NE Ohio
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
conical or spangenhelms, like Anglo-Saxons or Normans
see the reference under Arms and Armor, p 26
J.R.R. Tolkien encyclopedia: scholarship and critical assessment By Michael D. C. Drout
see the reference under Arms and Armor, p 26
J.R.R. Tolkien encyclopedia: scholarship and critical assessment By Michael D. C. Drout
Near is the hour when the Lost should come forth, And the Grey Company ride from the North.
- dwayne davis
- Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:38 am
- Location: north east TN.
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
seems i recall the dwarves wearing helms. with visors bearing the image of horrible faces on them. so it could be you were gifted one of these ancient helms by a greatful dwarven ally? ( could be an intresting modification). and yeah we can get the impression that tolkien may have invisioned the arms and armor bearing a resemblance to dark ages perhaps through early norman design. but it still leaves a broad area in which to play arround. perhaps the noldor and dunedain wearing armor akin to norman? perhaps dwarves leaning a little closer to the dark ages or viking period? good references can also be had in the sillmarilion and the children of hurin too.
Not all who are old are wise, not all who are young are fools
Where now is the horse and rider? where is the horn that was blowing?
Where now is the horse and rider? where is the horn that was blowing?
- Mirimaran
- Thangailhir
- Posts: 2110
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: North Carolina
- Contact:
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
That's a great link, Beornmann! And I agree with the others, I think the model that Tolkien was using was the Dark Ages. I guess the question would be is how, and why, your helmet evolved. I do like Jolromir's idea of it being a gift from the Dwarves, leaves you alot of room for customization.
"Well, what are you waiting for? I am an old man, and have no time for your falter! Come at me, if you will, for I do not sing songs of dastards!"
- Eledhwen
- Thangailhir
- Posts: 1346
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:09 pm
- Location: Nandaromar, Rhovanion
- Contact:
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
Dark Ages would be my assessment too. This means spangenhelms, raised conical helms, round top helms, and of course the late roman inspired helmet with faceplate from Sutton Hoo.
In the Middle East, there were spangenhelms but also raised conicals and even spun styles so the Easterlings may have some of that.
Mmmm, think Burgh Castle helm, Sutton Hoo, Coppergate, Vendel style and so on as a guide and you will not be too far off I think.
Eledhwen
In the Middle East, there were spangenhelms but also raised conicals and even spun styles so the Easterlings may have some of that.
Mmmm, think Burgh Castle helm, Sutton Hoo, Coppergate, Vendel style and so on as a guide and you will not be too far off I think.
Eledhwen
Nandalad!
- Beornmann
- Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
- Posts: 329
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:57 pm
- Location: NE Ohio
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
You can also find inspiration from ANGUS MCBRIDE'S CHARACTERS OF MIDDLE-EARTH. It's almost like an Osprey book for ME.
Near is the hour when the Lost should come forth, And the Grey Company ride from the North.
- Greg
- Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
- Posts: 4496
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
- Location: Eriador; Central Indiana
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
Ernildihir...that's not a bad idea. If I had the ability (and facilities necessary) to form such complex shapes as wings, I just might consider that. Consider the idea tucked away for future reference.
Since posting yesterday, I found some visual sources to look into, though unfortunately, very few of Tolkien's own. Every time I feel as though I've found a tolkien drawing with a helmet in it, I scroll down and find the name of a different artist. Regardless, here's some food for thought, most of which happens to support most of the above claims.
Angus McBride's Rohirrim
http://thecimmerian.com/wp-content/uplo ... hirrim.gif
Jan Pospisil's "Haradrim Camp"
http://thecimmerian.com/wp-content/uplo ... m_Camp.jpg
Angus McBride's Corsairs (with Aragorn, though I don't particularly like the fact that Corsair helm that looks strangely like a seashell had a baby with a dragon)
http://thecimmerian.com/wp-content/uplo ... rsairs.gif
John Howe - Legolas and Gimli at Helm's Deep
Here's an interesting one. Gimli fits in perfectly with the idea of the conical helm and chain maille, whereas Legolas...well...I can't say I've ever seen Legolas portrayed quite this way. Was legolas ever said to have been wearing a helmet? Not that I can think of...much less an obscenely bizarre visored one such as this, nor with elvish fancied-up jack chains and elbow cops along his arms, though a few members have mentioned jack chains at one time or another as possible Ranger armor. New line certainly followed the bow design here a bit, though I'm honestly glad they ditched the rest of his getup from this image.
http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gall ... -gimli.jpg
Of all of the helmets shown in Peter Jackson's flick, Gimli's helmet seems to me to be the best Tolkien Representation of Dark Ages armour altered by Dwarven design. It's basically a spangenhelm with fixed rather than hinged cheek plates and a rounded top. Lots of angular dwarven influence and such, of course, but I think the Norman/viking influence remains there. The Gondorian helms of the films are, in my opinion, a pretty drastic stretch from a spangenhelm, barbute, or norman conical, but there's influence from all of them there. I think the helms were close enough to get by...it was the plate armor they were worn with that crossed the line a bit from a literary-accuracy point of view.
The design I'm working on tends towards the Dwarven ends of things as a whole, I think. It's not boxy, but it does seem a bit more straight-lined and not flowy enough to fall under elvish design, but at the same time isn't necessarily boxy enough to be considered Dwarven from start to finish. Bear in mind, the helm I'm talking about is NOT the sugarloaf seen above, but rather a self-constructed custom helm of different design.
I could start by suggesting that the base helm was made for me by a run-of-the-mill Human smith, which would make it fit into the design tolerances Tolkien gave us rather well. The faceplate/visor could then be passed off as having been designed and added during a stay with the dwarves after a near miss close encounter with an orcish spear from a warg rider scarred my face. Does that sound like too much of a stretch? I can't imagine why a faceplate wouldn't be thought of by an enterprising smith to cover the face of a mounted fighter were the reality of a close call to come to light.
I'd like to think that I'd spend a fair amount of my time with the Dwarves...being that I myself thoroughly enjoy crafting my own equipment, I can see myself as a Ranger finding excuses whenever possible to extend my wandering into the realms of the dwarves, fostering a friendship and alliance with them for mutual benefit in order to help secure the borders of the north as well as to encourage the development of my own craftsmanship skills through working with them. That'd certainly explain the runes burned into the strap on my blowing horn, too. And, of course, were I to pursue this explanation as "reasoning" behind my helmet's design, I'll have to engrave some Dwarf-runes throughout the helmet itself to encourage its unique origins.
Thoughts?
Excellent resource, Beornmann!Beornmann wrote:conical or spangenhelms, like Anglo-Saxons or Normans
see the reference under Arms and Armor, p 26
J.R.R. Tolkien encyclopedia: scholarship and critical assessment By Michael D. C. Drout
Since posting yesterday, I found some visual sources to look into, though unfortunately, very few of Tolkien's own. Every time I feel as though I've found a tolkien drawing with a helmet in it, I scroll down and find the name of a different artist. Regardless, here's some food for thought, most of which happens to support most of the above claims.
Angus McBride's Rohirrim
http://thecimmerian.com/wp-content/uplo ... hirrim.gif
Jan Pospisil's "Haradrim Camp"
http://thecimmerian.com/wp-content/uplo ... m_Camp.jpg
Angus McBride's Corsairs (with Aragorn, though I don't particularly like the fact that Corsair helm that looks strangely like a seashell had a baby with a dragon)
http://thecimmerian.com/wp-content/uplo ... rsairs.gif
John Howe - Legolas and Gimli at Helm's Deep
Here's an interesting one. Gimli fits in perfectly with the idea of the conical helm and chain maille, whereas Legolas...well...I can't say I've ever seen Legolas portrayed quite this way. Was legolas ever said to have been wearing a helmet? Not that I can think of...much less an obscenely bizarre visored one such as this, nor with elvish fancied-up jack chains and elbow cops along his arms, though a few members have mentioned jack chains at one time or another as possible Ranger armor. New line certainly followed the bow design here a bit, though I'm honestly glad they ditched the rest of his getup from this image.
http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gall ... -gimli.jpg
Of all of the helmets shown in Peter Jackson's flick, Gimli's helmet seems to me to be the best Tolkien Representation of Dark Ages armour altered by Dwarven design. It's basically a spangenhelm with fixed rather than hinged cheek plates and a rounded top. Lots of angular dwarven influence and such, of course, but I think the Norman/viking influence remains there. The Gondorian helms of the films are, in my opinion, a pretty drastic stretch from a spangenhelm, barbute, or norman conical, but there's influence from all of them there. I think the helms were close enough to get by...it was the plate armor they were worn with that crossed the line a bit from a literary-accuracy point of view.
The design I'm working on tends towards the Dwarven ends of things as a whole, I think. It's not boxy, but it does seem a bit more straight-lined and not flowy enough to fall under elvish design, but at the same time isn't necessarily boxy enough to be considered Dwarven from start to finish. Bear in mind, the helm I'm talking about is NOT the sugarloaf seen above, but rather a self-constructed custom helm of different design.
I could start by suggesting that the base helm was made for me by a run-of-the-mill Human smith, which would make it fit into the design tolerances Tolkien gave us rather well. The faceplate/visor could then be passed off as having been designed and added during a stay with the dwarves after a near miss close encounter with an orcish spear from a warg rider scarred my face. Does that sound like too much of a stretch? I can't imagine why a faceplate wouldn't be thought of by an enterprising smith to cover the face of a mounted fighter were the reality of a close call to come to light.
I'd like to think that I'd spend a fair amount of my time with the Dwarves...being that I myself thoroughly enjoy crafting my own equipment, I can see myself as a Ranger finding excuses whenever possible to extend my wandering into the realms of the dwarves, fostering a friendship and alliance with them for mutual benefit in order to help secure the borders of the north as well as to encourage the development of my own craftsmanship skills through working with them. That'd certainly explain the runes burned into the strap on my blowing horn, too. And, of course, were I to pursue this explanation as "reasoning" behind my helmet's design, I'll have to engrave some Dwarf-runes throughout the helmet itself to encourage its unique origins.
Thoughts?
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
I like the Dwarf idea.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
- Greg
- Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
- Posts: 4496
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
- Location: Eriador; Central Indiana
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
Forgot to throw an image on here so I'm not babbling nonsense.
The way it is currently, there isn't a TON of Dwarven influence, but it's on the right track, I think, and could find its way towards looking appropriate given the background I'm planning on using for an explanation. I'm still not completely set on the design, though, and could use some input. I'm wanting to be more-or-less Tolkien appropriate, but by the same Token, I'm REALLY looking for function here.
The way it is currently, there isn't a TON of Dwarven influence, but it's on the right track, I think, and could find its way towards looking appropriate given the background I'm planning on using for an explanation. I'm still not completely set on the design, though, and could use some input. I'm wanting to be more-or-less Tolkien appropriate, but by the same Token, I'm REALLY looking for function here.
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
- Mirimaran
- Thangailhir
- Posts: 2110
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: North Carolina
- Contact:
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
Now Greg, these are enlightened times, and if your Ranger persona has fostered a very close friendship with a dwarf lady, it's cool on this end. Really
j/k
*edit* I can certainly see a Ranger, wounded, convalescing after rescue by Dwarves in the Misty Mountains, and perhaps joining them for a sortie or two as thanks. Invaluable orc killing experience at that!
Regardless of make by Men or dwarf, I think that any armor or equipment would be decorated, even sparsely. We do not think of Rangers as warriors, per se, as perhaps Tolkien might have envisioned them in the mode of Beowulf, or as individual heroes, but men of the Dark Ages certainly decorated their gear, as it was a sign of status as a member of the warrior class. We do know that Tolkien doesn't describe the Grey Company as being particular blingy
" A little apart the Rangers sat, silent, in an ordered company, armed with spear and bow and sword. They were clad in cloaks of dark grey, and their hoods were cast now over helm and head. Their horses were strong and of proud bearing, but rough-haired; and one stood there without a rider, Aragorn's own horse that they had brought from the North; Roheryn was his name. There was no gleam of stone or gold, nor any fair thing in all their gear and harness: nor did their riders bear any badge or token, save only that each cloak was pinned upon the left shoulder by a brooch of silver shaped like a rayed star. " The Passing of the Grey Company", The Return of the King.
It could be that their gear was more subdued than colored, decorated but not gilded. Of course, gifts from the elves or dwarves would represent their own culture, and not that of the Dunedain. I would wager a helm made by a smith in Bree would be recognizable among the armour of other cultures.
j/k
*edit* I can certainly see a Ranger, wounded, convalescing after rescue by Dwarves in the Misty Mountains, and perhaps joining them for a sortie or two as thanks. Invaluable orc killing experience at that!
Regardless of make by Men or dwarf, I think that any armor or equipment would be decorated, even sparsely. We do not think of Rangers as warriors, per se, as perhaps Tolkien might have envisioned them in the mode of Beowulf, or as individual heroes, but men of the Dark Ages certainly decorated their gear, as it was a sign of status as a member of the warrior class. We do know that Tolkien doesn't describe the Grey Company as being particular blingy
" A little apart the Rangers sat, silent, in an ordered company, armed with spear and bow and sword. They were clad in cloaks of dark grey, and their hoods were cast now over helm and head. Their horses were strong and of proud bearing, but rough-haired; and one stood there without a rider, Aragorn's own horse that they had brought from the North; Roheryn was his name. There was no gleam of stone or gold, nor any fair thing in all their gear and harness: nor did their riders bear any badge or token, save only that each cloak was pinned upon the left shoulder by a brooch of silver shaped like a rayed star. " The Passing of the Grey Company", The Return of the King.
It could be that their gear was more subdued than colored, decorated but not gilded. Of course, gifts from the elves or dwarves would represent their own culture, and not that of the Dunedain. I would wager a helm made by a smith in Bree would be recognizable among the armour of other cultures.
"Well, what are you waiting for? I am an old man, and have no time for your falter! Come at me, if you will, for I do not sing songs of dastards!"
- Mirimaran
- Thangailhir
- Posts: 2110
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: North Carolina
- Contact:
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
"Well, what are you waiting for? I am an old man, and have no time for your falter! Come at me, if you will, for I do not sing songs of dastards!"
- Greg
- Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
- Posts: 4496
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
- Location: Eriador; Central Indiana
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
I don't think my wife would appreciate being called a dwarf.Mirimaran wrote:Now Greg, these are enlightened times, and if your Ranger persona has fostered a very close friendship with a dwarf lady, it's cool on this end. Really
j/k
*chuckles*
As for the rest of that post, one of the many reasons I keep you around is so you can use that silver tongue of yours to help me excuse away some of my projects that otherwise might not fit in ME perfectly. Bravo.
As for the link...excellent. Many thanks!
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
- Mirimaran
- Thangailhir
- Posts: 2110
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: North Carolina
- Contact:
Re: Middle Earth and Helmets
Aha!
It is good to know that this old Ranger still has some uses from time to time. I am sure your Lady is of the highest birth, and did not mean to associate her with the beaded folk, but they are of noble stock themselves and it is no slight to be compared with their company. Might that your noble Lady would post, from time to time, so that we would know her better....
As for the project, I can't wait to see what you come up with. I've always had a problem with helmets because I have a long straight nose. Any guard I either remove or bend out of shape. Anyone else have this problem?
It is good to know that this old Ranger still has some uses from time to time. I am sure your Lady is of the highest birth, and did not mean to associate her with the beaded folk, but they are of noble stock themselves and it is no slight to be compared with their company. Might that your noble Lady would post, from time to time, so that we would know her better....
As for the project, I can't wait to see what you come up with. I've always had a problem with helmets because I have a long straight nose. Any guard I either remove or bend out of shape. Anyone else have this problem?
"Well, what are you waiting for? I am an old man, and have no time for your falter! Come at me, if you will, for I do not sing songs of dastards!"