Who were the Forodwaith

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caedmon
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Who were the Forodwaith

Postby caedmon » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:06 am

Elleth wrote: ...on the middle one reads more forodrim to me than dunedain, though...



Forodrim? As in Lossoth? I guess I had always imagined them as more Eskimoan than Norse.
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Elleth
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Re: Sheath Designs for critique

Postby Elleth » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:30 am

caedmon- I'd pictured them as rather bronze age ish proto-norse, based I confess mostly on location. Rereading a bit, Im coming to your view.

ken- lovink that tutorial I am!
Keepink the word order Russian makes much funny in Google Translate!

Also WOW thats gorgeous work. I'm going to have to steal some of those techniques!
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Re: Forod

Postby Udwin » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:40 pm

Elleth wrote:I'd pictured them as rather bronze age ish proto-norse, based I confess mostly on location. Rereading a bit, Im coming to your view.


I hadn't considered that angle before. My personal interpretation was always more of a mythic-historic Inuit (likely a result of reading Crow and Weasel many many times as a youngling, but also the reference to snow-housing and utilization of bone), with perhaps a bit of Saami thrown in for Euro flavour.
LOTRO's interp. is all over the place, sort of mammoth-hunting yurt-dwelling whatsits.
"I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size): I like gardens, trees, and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe and like good plain food; I have a very simple sense of humor; I go to bed late and get up late (when possible); I do not travel much."
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Re: Who were the Forodwaith?

Postby caedmon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:44 am

Udwin wrote:
Elleth wrote:I'd pictured them as rather bronze age ish proto-norse, based I confess mostly on location. Rereading a bit, Im coming to your view.


I hadn't considered that angle before. My personal interpretation was always more of a mythic-historic Inuit (likely a result of reading Crow and Weasel many many times as a youngling, but also the reference to snow-housing and utilization of bone), with perhaps a bit of Saami thrown in for Euro flavour.
LOTRO's interp. is all over the place, sort of mammoth-hunting yurt-dwelling whatsits.


Reading the 'Eriol or Aeflwine' in book 2 of the Lost Tales. And from it I can say that the Professor had historic scandinavians in mind when he imagined the Forodwaith.

It is an unfinished account of a saxon who goes to Tol Eressëa, and is from a period before LOTR and the SIlmarriliion had been merged into a cohesive whole. In it, he is made a slave by the Forodwaithe, who in this story are Vikings.
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Re: Who were the Forodwaith

Postby Udwin » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:27 pm

caedmon wrote:Reading the 'Eriol or Aeflwine' in book 2 of the Lost Tales. And from it I can say that the Professor had historic scandinavians in mind when he imagined the Forodwaith.
It is an unfinished account of a saxon who goes to Tol Eressëa, and is from a period before LOTR and the SIlmarriliion had been merged into a cohesive whole. In it, he is made a slave by the Forodwaithe, who in this story are Vikings.


I looked it up, and it has them sailing in a 'well-built ship of cunning lines', and are said to have a 'great heart for adventures of the sea'). JRRT (or Christopher?) states "The Forodwaith are of course Viking invaders from Norway or Denmark", and later "The only clue in AElfwine of England to the period of AElfwine's life is the invasion of the Forodwaith (Vikings); the mighty king of the Franks may therefore be Charlemagne..."

HOWEVER, as you say, the Book of Lost Tales material is part of the earlier (and eventually abandoned) 'Mythology for England' concept. While many of the names and rough ideas may be shared, these should not be considered a part of the unified Middle-earth Legendarium. This is the same period that has mecha-dragons attacking Gondolin and Numenorean spaceships, which do not align with the later established setting. Fun to read, but we must be careful in ascribing them too much influence on the Middle-earth of the LR.
(I'm not saying that 'Aelfwine' wouldn't have known the Vikings as 'Forodwaith'(North-people='Northmen'), but the Eriol/Aelfwine stories are specifically set in the early Middle Ages, so those Forodwaith shouldn't be assumed to be the same as the Lossoth of Forochel who live in snow-houses and are scared of Arvedui's ship.
"I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size): I like gardens, trees, and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe and like good plain food; I have a very simple sense of humor; I go to bed late and get up late (when possible); I do not travel much."
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Re: Who were the Forodwaith

Postby caedmon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:15 pm

Udwin wrote:HOWEVER, as you say, the Book of Lost Tales material is part of the earlier (and eventually abandoned) 'Mythology for England' concept. While many of the names and rough ideas may be shared, these should not be considered a part of the unified Middle-earth Legendarium


Agreed. However all we have for the Lossoth/Forodwaith in the the unified Legendarium is a couple lines. Which, to me, means that he hadn't fleshed them out particularly well, and it's a perfect time to look for clues in related works. The two related works that touch on them are Eriol/Aelfwine stories with Vikings, and Fr. Christmas with the SnowMen. Neither of which indicate any overt proto-Eskimoan features. Other than northern living.
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Re: Who were the Forodwaith

Postby caedmon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:15 pm

Udwin wrote:HOWEVER, as you say, the Book of Lost Tales material is part of the earlier (and eventually abandoned) 'Mythology for England' concept. While many of the names and rough ideas may be shared, these should not be considered a part of the unified Middle-earth Legendarium


Agreed. However all we have for the Lossoth/Forodwaith in the the unified Legendarium is a couple lines. Which, to me, means that he hadn't fleshed them out particularly well, and it's a perfect time to look for clues in related works. The two related works that touch on them are Eriol/Aelfwine stories with Vikings, and Fr. Christmas with the SnowMen. Neither of which indicate any overt proto-Eskimoan features. Other than northern living.
-Jack Horner

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Re: Who were the Forodwaith

Postby Udwin » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:44 pm

True.
I'm revising my proto-Inuit mental image. (I'm still getting over Tolkien straight-up calling Forodwaith 'Vikings' Just seems wrong). After a little research, and based on the four or five things we know about the Lossoth from Appendix A, I think Saami are probably the closest analogue:
-they 'house in the snow'. This always made me think of igloos, but a little image searching showed some results that have made me reconsider. A snow-covered conical skin or brush lodge would (to an unfamiliar observer) appear to be a 'snow house'.
-they 'run on the ice with bones on their feet'. I had always heard vikings invented ice skates, but apparentlyrecent research has shown that the first skates come from Finland, ~1000BCE!
-they 'have carts without wheels', i.e. sleds. Whether they're pulled by dog teams or reindeer is anyone's guess.
-they're 'amazed and afraid' of Cirdan's rescue ship. I've found some signs of simple boatmaking amog Saami, so I guess it could scary because it's an impressive elvish vessel, but if the Lossoth were Inuit, boats wouldn't be anything to be scared of (umiaks and kayaks are a major part of life).
"I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size): I like gardens, trees, and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe and like good plain food; I have a very simple sense of humor; I go to bed late and get up late (when possible); I do not travel much."
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Re: Who were the Forodwaith

Postby Kortoso » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:57 pm

Udwin wrote:True.
...
-they 'run on the ice with bones on their feet'. I had always heard vikings invented ice skates, but apparentlyrecent research has shown that the first skates come from Finland, ~1000BCE!
...

Well, keep in mind, that whatever ideas that Tolkien had, they were based on what he knew back then.
I'm actually curious if Forodwaith was inspired by Pohjola from Finnish folktales, which we know he studied,
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