Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

For discussion of Dunedain culture, what it might have looked like and how it worked.

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Eledhwen
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Eledhwen »

You do the best you can, with the means at hand, in the time you have and by the abilities you have. That is all that we've ever really required. We do not tell each other what we have to have or what 'level' we have to reach. We each strive to better ourselves as our circumstances allow.

If your thing is to take one of the cultures that Tolkien used as a basis for his peoples and make yourself a living historical copy...and you can do that...bravo!

If you can't reach that..or do not wish to go quite that far, bravo to you too.

With St. Hubert's Rangers I have a 14th century persona. The gear is as absolutely accurate as I can make it.

Here, I have period appropriate materials, but I mix in things that are not necessarily timeline coextant..and I use Elven decoration on some of it. I use styles of footwear that didn't exist in certain periods...so what? They are period to their time even if not all of it was around at the same time. Or demonstrably so anyway.

Do not be so swift to start telling people what their goals are, would by my counsel. For whatever it is worth.

We always had it that each individual did their best to achieve as close a possible an accurate depiction (based on each person's interpretation of that accuracy) of a Dunedain Ranger..and now of course other people's of Middle Earth.

You cannot just toss out the fact that while the people's of Middle Earth were based on various real world historical examples, Tolkien played with them; Numenorian's have Egyptian elements to them, for instance. That would mean the Gondorians had at least some 'flash' of this left.

In the end, the cultures of Middle Earth, while using gear based on our own real past and having cultures similar to those, as they must, were their own peoples. It leaves room for interpretation.

So should we. In my own opinion. That is all I have left to say on the matter.

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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Greg »

Alright! LOVE the discussion, everyone!

Eledhwen, I didn't mean to say that Tolkien shouldn't be open for interpretation. If I did, I apologize. I never meant to say that kit should actually LOOK like Andy's, but rather that the feel his gave off was something I, in my own opinion, strive towards and view as a standard. Take it or leave it. I completely agree that there's room for interpretation, because there are things he wrote about that are NOT historical. There are no historical European back quivers, but he wrote that they were used, so we have to come up with our own. Lots of things like that. By all means, interpret.

Jack, Jonathan, Odigan...forgive my oversight regarding period dyes being bright and even...yes, the lincoln green I referred to and detested was the technicolor glow-in-the-dark. It's true that many period dyes were vivid and even, but I don't, in my personal opinion, believe that perfect dye jobs are required (or necessarily desirable) for Rangers in Middle Earth.

Odigan, on the topic of "imperfect" pouches, I want to make it clear that I am not suggesting that everyone have pouches with ragged edges hanging down the sides, trailing dead animal carcasses and all buckskinner'ed-up. I'll have to concede the shiny leather point, but I will hold my own regarding rivets and other such modern hardware on pouches and the like, which I believe you agree with.

LOTS of good stuff in here, people! By all means, I would encourage people to point out things I do wrong, like a few have in here. Far too often I think when I or others post pictures we just get a slap on the back with an "Atta boy", just for getting out in our gear. Please feel free to question what I'm doing. I wouldn't go so far as to "Attack" people if you see something you don't agree with, but hell, we're Rangers. "What the heck were you doing standing there? What was your purpose in being there? What on earth is that hanging from your belt? That thing doesn't seem to fit, and distracts from your kit, Greg." That sort of stuff. Feel free. I'm looking for ways to improve things, so I welcome criticism. I won't tear your head off. :GRIN:

Thanks for keeping this a discussion and not making it a bloodbath...it could've been one rather easily. THIS is what makes the MERF, the MERF.
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by jbook »

I know for myself, coming from Historical Reenacting and never having started at a point where the things I had were not quite accurate (because I was born into a family of established reenactors), I sometimes may not be as understanding. I don't mean to say that I am better than anyone, I just have a different starting point.

Because I come from that background I approach everything from a Historical perspective. That is to say that if you can't document something to that time period, don't use it. And that's really not a bad thing. It's not limiting or a buzz kill. It's a great challenge to research and get it just right. Plus in many reenacting situations I am there to educate the general public about the past and i want to represent it the way it was. Not the way I THINK it was.

With Middle-Earth, yes it's a fantasy world all be it based in History. But like has been said countless times already, there is desire to do it plausibly.
Now, one reason I have not put together any other kind of kit (not counting the Dale kit I originally posted because I want to make changes) is because I am not good at making things. Most of my reenacting clothes were made for me. Because of the colonial/regency style of the Hobbits I have the clothes to mix together to make a nice, plausible Hobbit kit. So that is what I chose to be because I was not willing to settle for anything less. I intend to work on a dwarven kit soon with the help of Greg.

Again, I would just encourage everyone to dig deeper into the books because at the end of the day that's where we should always look for what's right.

And also I would encourage everyone to take a look at the making of Documentary's for the New Line films. Everything they made looks so good and is a great tool for starting to put together a kit. They did a lot of research into the books. I know they deviated from the books some, but on the whole it all looks beautiful!
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Odigan »

Ernildhir wrote: Just curious, Odigan -- have you read The Four Loves by C.S. Lewis? What you said there instantly brought to my mind his chapter on Philia.
If I have, it was in part and a long while ago. I have a general distaste for Lewis and his writings, which I find derivative and insipid.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by E.MacKermak »

Just for curiosity: Where do the Ranger's Apprentice folks fit in with their mottled cloaks and seax/throwing knife combo.

I have worked hard to build my kit (both here and in the SCA) from the average Renn-faire level to something based on historical examples. I have replaced most of my cotton with linen and the machine created trims with card woven trim and embroidery. I do not have the time (or desire) to hand sew my outfits. I spend a lot of time making much of my other kit and I much prefer being out in it to spending hours making it. As Ringulf and Eledhwen said, it is a process and I will progress as my time and resources allow. I believe we all strive to attain a goal, but since none of us are perfect, not do we actually live in the age Tolkien based much of his work on, I don't think we will get to that level. It is about the journey not the destination.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Ringulf »

Greg wrote:Thanks for keeping this a discussion and not making it a bloodbath...it could've been one rather easily. THIS is what makes the MERF, the MERF.
Greg you did start off with a healthy disclaimer in the begining of the thread, saying simply that these were your opinions as you saw them and personally tried to follow them. You also gave a lot of great advice for making kit look more authentic, which you are very good at.

Thank you for doing so, and thank you for the discussion, We should all be able to speak our mind and on some points even disagree. That is what makes a good discusion, Two differing opinions!

In the end of the day though no matter how heated one's discussion may get, we all need to be able to say, "Ok enough of that, let's hit the tavern and grab a brew." or some such other expression of comradery.

We need to develope that sense of security amongst each other that says yes you think "A" and I think "B" and we may go round on this again, but today we are rangers, and the dawn will see us comrades united to a common purpose brothers and sisters in arms against all foes, and that breaks all.

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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Peter Remling »

I've got to say I disagree with a standard. You can make all the reccomendations you want but to say it's a standard will be detrimental to the forum as a whole.

If we're going to set a standard for costuming, what about language, and equipment ?

Should we all have to make our own tallow or beeswax candles ? How about lye soap with natural scents? What about eating, what foods are acceptable ?

Aside from the very real climate, allergic, skill set and financial issues each of us faces, there's the matter of how involved each one wants to get.

We have some great linguists and Tolkien historians here, are we to jepordize our current membership and new applicants because they feel intimidated. Each and everyone of the members brings new things to the table and I for one would hate to see even a fraction of that end.

I'm not saying we shouldn't aspire to a better kit but to set standards, that not one of us has even accomplished is not only hypocrital but a little presumptous.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by kaelln »

I have to admit that I don't really understand the whole "re-enactment" thing. I just like making things and gaining new skills, and that's good enough for me. If that means I'm not "good enough" to meet "standards", well, I just think that's silly. That said, I also have to say that I totally don't understand the prejudice against rivets. There is absolutely nothing historically incorrect about rivets. If you have a metal working culture, you have rivets. According to Wikipedia here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivet

"Solid rivets are one of the oldest and most reliable types of fasteners, having been found in archaeological findings dating back to the Bronze Age."

If it's just that they're shiny, there's another extremely old technology to take care of that: paint. :P
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Odigan »

Peter Remling wrote:I'm not saying we shouldn't aspire to a better kit but to set standards, that not one of us has even accomplished is not only hypocrital but a little presumptous.
A standard makes a clear goal to aspire to. It is neither hypocritical or presumptuous to establish minimum criteria when one's self has not yet attained those criteria, it is merely recognizing the desired characteristics which are to be attained. Virtually every industry establishes requirements for future endeavors which have no existing model, but that didn't stop us from breaking the sound barrier, or going to the moon.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Peter Remling »

But there in lies the issue, we are not an industry, we are a collection of individuals whose ideas of the Tolkien Fantasy vary greatly. My vision is not the same as yours'. It doesn't mean mine is any better or worse than yours', just different.

So whose standard ? mine, your's, a committee of standard makers ?

I can't tell you why every member came here. I can only speak for myself: aside from a love of Tolkien's key tales and the skills sets this inspires, is the freedom to act on my own interpetations in my own creative style. Something that I find sorely lacking in other re-enactment.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by kaelln »

Is it just me, or has this whole "historical accuracy" jag brought more rancor, discord and ill feeling to this forum in a shorter amount of time than anything I've ever seen before? Perhaps it's inevitable that when a group reaches a certain size disagreements are bound to cause splits, but I'd like to think not.

I, for instance, would be perfectly willing to listen to discussions about historical fabrics, their pros and cons, where good sources for them are, and would even find such discussions interesting, and perhaps enlightening. They might even convince me that, hey, maybe I ought to try wool and linen, if I thought it wouldn't break the bank and put me in the poorhouse, and if I could be convinced that it wouldn't be about as comfortable as taking a nap on a fire ant bed. On the other hand, I'm not likely to even take someone seriously if they tell me that there are standards I must adhere to, and I may only use historical fabrics, with historical patterns, and it may only be hand sewn, and you must have this but not that in your kit. Who would enforce such silliness? Are we going to create a Grand Inquisitor that will kick us off the list if we don't obey? It's not even feasible, much less advisable.

I know that right now, there are folks on the list that feel criticized and picked out. I know that there have been several times that I, personally, have reacted to something that was said with a feeling of, "Hey, is he talking about that thing I did that time?", and I would guess there are others that feel the same way. Whether that was what was intended or not, it doesn't make me want to run out and buy lots of wool, it just hurts my feelings and makes me think, "So-and-so is a jerk."

So if you historical accuracy types want to lead the forum in the direction you prefer, (although, frankly, I don't know why you care that what some of us do is different than what you do) I would suggest that instead of preaching at us, or establishing "standards", you *lead*. That's what Andy did. He showed us what he had done, and told us why. You want to cite chapter and verse of your sources? Cool. Interesting and informative are the name of the game. Don't try to tell others what to do or what they should be doing, tell us what you're doing, and leave the elitist judgement out of it. Share your enthusiasm and love, and you will *inspire* others to follow. Get all judgy and preachy and you'll just inspire others to get POed.

And I have no more right to tell any of you guys what to do than vice versa, so this is just my suggestion, and my own little sermon of the week. Back to your regularly scheduled program.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Manveruon »

Okay, first things first, I'd like to respond to the original post made here. Then I intend to go back through and read the rest of the comments, at which time I will modify and supplement this post as necessary.

First off, I'd like to say simply: YES. I agree!

Or I agree for the most part, at any rate. I do definitely think , as you mentioned, Greg, that all this stuff is a matter of opinion, and that everyone should take it all with a grain of salt. I am a firm believer that in these sorts of groups it's always good to encourage others to higher levels of quality, but never to absolutely require it, or to make anyone feel that they are somehow inferior for not following one person's standards or opinions. Especially because everyone starts somewhere, and while some may aspire to certain levels of costuming, they may not have the means, resources, or abilities to do this. Should these people be excluded from the fun simply for this reason? I think not.

Anyway, off-the-shelf just never looks as good to my eye, you're right. Or at least, almost never. In actual fact, I know at least two people who do pirate costuming with me (not strictly period-accurate costuming, but "period-plausible" or "period-feel" costuming, if you will) who buy almost all of their costumes and accessories from pre-made from sources varying from historical clothiers, to the Goodwill, to Target. And yet both of them are extremely convincing in their impressions. This is primarily due to the fact that they modify almost every single thing they buy. The item may have started out as a store-bought, shiny, glaringly-modern-looking object, but when they're done with it, the thing will resemble nothing so much as an archaeological find. Point being, you don't necessarily have to make everything yourself, or even have it custom made, to make it look convincing. You DO, however, have to "put some love into it," so to speak, and bloody well OWN the costume you're making.

That brings me to my next point: a large part of the battle is simply being comfortable in the costume you create. Owning it.
I've seen people in completely custom-made, beautifully constructed and weathered period-accurate (or in some cases, screen-accurate) garments, made with top-quality materials, stained, dyed, torn, patched, etc. who still look like they're wearing a Halloween costume. Why? They don't own it. They look ill at ease in the clothes they are wearing. In fact, they're not treating them as "clothes" at all, but are still viewing them as a strange, foreign, and uncomfortable costume.
Conversely, I saw a fellow who really stood out to me last year at my local renaissance festival dressed as a pirate who was wearing literally 100% off-the-rack items, and yet he owned it. Had I not known where he bought all of his garb, I would have felt he looked extremely convincing, just because of his bearing and demeanor. He was comfortable in his skin, and comfortable in his garb.

The next hurdle is being able to train your eye to seek out "authentic" looking items. Some may take a little work before they really look authentic, but others may just start out that way (thank goodness for the aged look being "in" right now!). The biggest key, for me, is texture - followed closely by silhouette, and then by color. Texture is huge though. Texture of fabric, texture of leather, texture of wood, etc. etc. Things with more texture, variegation, and depth always have a more authentic feel than things that are smooth, shiny, and brightly colored - as previously mentioned. A notable exception being polar fleece, heh.

When you're talking about fantasy costuming based upon pseudo-historical ideas, if you get the right kind of texture, fabric composition is secondary. That is to say, I've seen plenty of modern cotton fabrics out there (which may not be at all correct for Middle Ages clothing) that still look better, and more "rustic" than many period linens and wools, simply because they have a better texture. And once again, when it comes to fantasy, a lot of possibilities open up as far as fabrics, weaves, textures, etc. Who's to say that Cotton wasn't in common use in Tolkien's Middle Earth? They had potatoes and corn, which weren't around in Middle Ages Europe, so why not cotton? As someone pointed out elsewhere, there's even a character named Rosie Cotton in the books, so why not? In fact, one of the shirts I commonly use for pirate events is made of a 100% burgundy cotton fabric that I found - YES - at Wal-Mart.

Not that I particularly condone looking for fabrics at Wal-Mart (or anything for that matter, Wal-Mart being Wal-Mart), but what I'm saying is, keep your eyes open and you might find amazing things in the most unlikely of places (rather like Hobbits, heh). Is it a high-quality fabric? Probably not. It has shrunk considerably, and is now fraying rather alarmingly, but it has served me well for several years. I have found tons of perfectly usable fabrics at Joann as well. It just takes some digging, and keeping one's eyes open. When I can, I do prefer to use Denver Fabrics, which is a local store that carries a much larger selection of period-correct fabrics, although generally at slightly higher prices, but I can't always afford them, so I often use more "mainstream" sources. I maintain that these can still yield many favorable results.

Also, as with the above, I think Museum Replicas, and other sellers like them, can offer some very good basic pieces for one to get started with, and with some use, some "tough love" and some creativity, some of their pieces can really be great for this sort of thing. Off-the-shelf? Maybe not so much. But with a little wear and modding, why not?


In the end though, I think some basic rules-of-thumb can apply. The first rule of thumb I'd say would be that nearly everything a convincing Modern-Day-Ranger should wear ought to, ideally, be at least modified or aged somehow from its original creation. My second rule of thumb is that, no matter what you're wearing, own it. My third would be simply: more dirt. The more the better, heh. And lastly, I would say that you can do no better than looking closely at the costumes created for these films for inspiration:

The Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings Trilogy (specifically those of Strider, Faramir, and the Ithilien Rangers)
The Ridley Scott Robin Hood film
The Game of Thrones HBO series


Whew! I think I got it all out of my head, haha...

And I'm sure that after reading all the other responses that a lot of the stuff I put up here will end up being redundant, heh...



OKAY! Now for the revision part of my post!

Firstly,
Jonathan B. wrote: I agree that pouches that are too perfect can ruin the flow of an otherwise great kit but will some what disagree about shiny leather always being a bad thing as period methods can produce a similar look that can take awhile to settle out.
Oh and Jbook thank you for those links as I had never heard of either before.
I agree that shiny leather has a place. Shiny doesn't always equal modern-looking. But again, a lot of that comes down to texture, as well as the type of leather, the ornamentation of said leather (or lack thereof), etc.
And yes, Jbook! Thanks for the links!

caedmon wrote: First, everything has gone to quilting fabric. And wool, if you can get it, is:
a blend - I will leave this up to your own conscience.
Personally, my feeling is, when it comes to fantasy costuming, blends are pretty okay. But really this is a matter of taste. I've personally used a lot of linnen/cotton, linnen/rayon, and other blends that I thought worked quite well. There are a lot of people out there who claim to be able to spot the difference, but I personally don't believe this in most cases. My feeling is, blend away, if that's what you want to do. And if it's not you're thing then... well... don't do it, heh.

Still, despite everything, I will always personally encourage others to use natural fibers in preference over synthetics. They're just plain better. Beyond that, I've never been too picky.

caedmon wrote: But what of linen and cotton?!?

First for a medieval/medieval like setting cotton is problematic in that the type of cotton used in the middle ages is not the type accessible in the middle ages. The technology used for modern cotton was not created until the 19th c. (Eli Whitney - the Cotton Gin)

Linen (and hemp) were widely used in Northern Europe, but as they do not take color well from period methods, they were usually white, and relegated to underclothes. Brightly colored linens are right out.

Ok, and leather?
First Joanne doesn't carry leather, also I can find few historic examples of leather clothing in medieval Europe. protective wear (i.e blacksmith's apron; gloves) and armour; yes. Clothing, no.
This is all very true in regards to historical clothing. That being said, in regards Middle Earth costuming, some of these rules may not apply. My feeling about all of this sort of thing has always been essentially, "do what you want." This is less so in a strict reenactment environment, since in that case it is generally accepted that a person is trying to recreate, as closely as possible, the actual clothing of the Middle Ages, but in regards to Middle Earth rangering, I'd say it's got a lot to do with personal interpretation and what individuals feel is "right" for their own garments.
Last edited by Manveruon on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Manveruon »

Okay, starting another post here, because the last one was getting long. At any rate...
Odigan wrote: There is nothing wrong with setting a baseline standard... I refer instead to: Type of fabric (wool, linen, silk, etc.), having no visible machine stitching, no snaps/zippers/velcro/modern fasteners, or whathaveyou. The sorts of things that may be obvious to some and not to others and make great strides towards crafting a believable impression.
I personally think standards like this are often a good thing to have, but even they can sometimes feel restrictive. In my personal opinion (and thusly, not meant to apply to anyone else), I would say that machine stitching has always been low on my list of cares. Sure, I LIKE hand-stitching (heck, I've just gotten into doing a ton of it myself), but overall if someone prefers to use a sewing machine for their work, so be it. Personally, I feel very few people will ever be getting close enough to me and my garb to tell the difference. I'm a big fan of the 10-foot-rule. However, I would agree that snaps, velcro, zippers, and things of that nature are definitely something to weed out as much as possible. That's a personal pet-peeve of mine. Especially zippers.
Odigan wrote:
Greg wrote:A great Ranger kit does not look like the armor worn by Drizzt on R.A. Salvatore's Novel Covers.
Nothing should look like that. Ever.
Haha, touche, good sir! And agreed wholeheartedly! :P
Odigan wrote:
Greg wrote:Imperfect pouches. Stained pieces of misshapen leather. Dirt. Coal marks. Sweatstains on bracers. Irregular fabric textures.
One should be careful not to take a cue from Hollywood and carry this too far. There has long been a trend now to make persons in period-set pieces "dirty." There is a fairly distinct line between believable everyday wear and grime and outright filth. Our ancestors (in whatever Age they may have been) were not filthy anymore than they were pristine. Portrayals in visual media (as film) are representative.
Totally agreed here too. Wear and tear on clothing is different than outright filth. Still, if a ranger has been out in the wild for a looooooong while, he's probably going to look pretty filthy. That's something I thought PJ's LotR trilogy did really well - the people looked filthy when they should've been filthy, but otherwise not so much.


Also, the below post really sums up well my personal feelings:
Ringulf wrote:Let's face it folks we were not all born with great kits or for the most part blessed enough to have them handed to us. Even the guys and gals you see with phenominal, authentic kit started somewhere. I recall even seeing some folks rangering with partial kits and t shirts and jeans. And what is wrong with that? Nothing! We all get into this from some other situation and even if we were died in the wool Tolkien fanatics I am sure we have seen our share of bad garb, costumes and re-makes of mundane clothing.
Should we stop there? Throw up our hands and say, "Well that's all I want. or can do." ?
Well I hope not, that would be a shame, but if that is the level at which you feel most comfortable more power to you.

You may be missing a wonderful opportunity though.
As Greg has said several times in the posts, (and I am paraphrasing here)

"X" is what I am using right now, I plan on making "X+" to replace it.
Normally that is when, "I get the: Time, funds, skills or materials."

Thinking about kit has made me embark on a redesign of much of the garb I once was happy with. It is good to grow, to expand your horizons.

I try and think about it's purpose, it's creation (what it took to creat it) and how I can do the best I can with what I have, even if it is a stepping stone to where I would like to be.

I think the most important thing is to come, enjoy, learn, experience, share.
If you get involved, you will undoubtably see there are things you like. Determine what they are and try to learn more about them. Then take a whack at making it for yourself. At the very least it will give you an intimate understanding and appreciation of what it was like to make. Then if you are compleatly convinced that that is not your thing, for whatever reason, you will recognise it's quality when go to purchase one.

Like Billy Kristal says..."It's a process.."

I am all for standards as suggestions and I daresay that I have never striven for mediocraty, yet I am much more apt to do as Ceadmon sugests and simply lead by example as the exclusivity that seems to be touted here more and more lately, suggests that there is only one way to go about things and it is hard and fast and it must be according to my standards.
I really don't feel that is neccisarry. I mean I don't think anyone is gonna blush or feel enraged if you are wearing a cotton cloak. Is it good for someone to know it is cotton not egyptian cotton or Umbarian cotton, well yeah, but knowing the facts, then trying to get as close to them as possible is a far shot from mediocraty. It is mearly people learning and growing to reach what is good.

Well said, sir! Overall, we all have ideas of what we wish to aspire to, garb-wise. We may not all be able to get there just now, but we try. Some of us are perfectly happy with a "lower fidelity" costume than others. That's okay too. The part that's important is finding a mutual love for this genre, and learning all about it. I know I'm new (and so I hope you'll please excuse me for my excessive yakking), but it seems to me that this is a group of very creative, friendly, like-minded people. I personally don't see anyone here as being overbearing or condescending when it comes to costuming, or anything else for that matter. I've met folks like that in the SCA, I've met them at the ren faire, I've met them in pirate groups, and I've been put off by them every time. But so far here the attitude feels considerably more positive and encouraging. People like Greg may suggest certain goals and aspirations for others to consider for their costuming, but they don't seem to me to be "forcing" anyone to do anything or think anything that they don't want to. And I really dig that. I sincerely hope I can add to that atmosphere and be a part of it :D
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Mirimaran »

I've been reading the posts and comments with great interest, and at least to my reckoning there seem to be some different threads of thought that are much more than what fabric to use to make tunics and which leather makes better pouches. As much as I am an individualist, I can understand what some are asking for, but when we say standards, it might sound like we are on our way to a rigidity that will alienate some members and keep away those who might think our group is a bit too elitist. Let's look at the title of the thread: Dunedain Culture. So what is a culture? Here's a cut-and-dried definition:

"the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also :the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time"

So, what we are doing, while Rangering and the like, is recreating the culture of a civilization that did not exist thousands of years ago. We have examples, both literary and visual, that are provided by the inspiration from an era of our own history (the Dark Ages) and influenced by artists and the like. What those examples are leading us to, is to be blunt, fashion. What clothing, purpose or intent, was worn by a small group of dedicated individuals out of a greater population that most likely did not dress the same. Which means the Rangers we aspire to emulate probably do not reflect the actual culture of fashion of the Dunedain themselves. So, we are on our way to something here, as we are all learners in some way or another, we find ourselves with a yearning to know or learn new skills, find that we are just not satisfied with what others say is acceptable, argue that what is costume to some is garb to another. We find that that kit we made, while serviceable, does not meet the mind's eye of what we expect we should be using, or wearing, so we begin again, until we finally mesh imagination with reality. As we do this, we find that our individual views reflect so much with kit and garb that when we find ourselves with our fellows, that we are sometimes on opposites as to construction, materials, or even style, yet again we are all wanting the same thing. So, here is another definition of culture:

the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education

That's Dunedain education. I submit to all of you that we are the Dunedain, last remnant of the Men of Westernesse, lost long ago. As such, we are fiercely defending our people, our history, our culture, if you will. Sometimes fighting so much, we may attack those closest to us, our own brothers and sisters. So, I don't think it's wrong to have standards, as we are developing the recreation of the culture of our ancient kin. What we have to do, as Ranger brethren, is develop what those standards are, what we consider, as a people, we would use and wear and outfit our sons and daughters in. I'm not a reenactor, or a LARPer, or much of a woodsman, to be honest. What I am is a bit of a dreamer, who is very happy to found others who want to share the dream of the Dunedain, that one day their Kingdom and people would be restored. What clothing is made of; who knows where the Bree-folk get their rough cloth, or what old mother sews by candlelight the tunic that I wear, what craftsman made my pouch, or what my cloak is made of. My stories and tales don't concern themselves with garb, but rather those who wear them. Certainly I want my garb and kit to match what I see in my mind's eye, and I doubt I will ever truly match that, but half the fun of this hobby, or being a part of this culture, if you will, is trying to. Standards might not be the word to use, but I think that a cultural norm might be more apt. Just my thoughts, and hope that everyone can find their footing on the issue and move forward.

Ken
"Well, what are you waiting for? I am an old man, and have no time for your falter! Come at me, if you will, for I do not sing songs of dastards!"
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Eledhwen
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Eledhwen »

I think my discomfort with the notion of set standards is more due to what happens far too often; people in time start using those standards as a measuring mark on who is doing it right and as I club with which to get others to come along. It happened in the SCA...still is in many ways...and I've watched that organization for 40 years.

If you really value what Andy was doing, and I most certainly do as I am sure you folks do too, then do it as he did it; lead by example. Do, then let others follow in their own way. He never set standards on anything but himself that I am aware of..and that is what I meant in my own post. We each have our own standards and none is better than any other, as Pete pointed out...just different.

Who gets to select standards? Why those people, whomever they might be? What if those set standards do not appeal to people? What is their recourse? I wear Viking turnshoes with late Roman pants and leggings, coupled with 12th century shirt and a duster derived from an old west pattern. My quiver is a back quiver, I carry a tomahawk rather than an axe, my bow has bamboo for the back, and my hood comes from the 14th century. Sure, they are all wool or linen...cotton, btw, was well known to the Indians (of India) and Egyptians just not much like modern cotton. I use rivets; the Celts and Romans did, so why not? Which of these aspects would meet standards, which would not? Who gets to say? Why?

If you must have some standard to strive for, why not simply have it to be the very best Ranger you are capable of being in the way that you understand it?

Each of us brings our own unique gifts and ideas to the mix that is, as Mirimaran said, becoming our Dunedain culture. To coral that, or confine it in some way is, to my mind, unnecessary and may even be detrimental.

I think setting standards, while it might seem cool to start, would in time become detrimental. Standards get tightened, 'defined', turned into stone hard benchmarks far too often.

Let each Ranger strive to do their best, to better their kit, to explore their understanding of Dunedain culture in their own way. I think we all benefit from that.

Now I guess I am done. This whole notion of standards has unsettled me; one of the things I loved about this was that there were in fact no set standards. Thank goodness we have a stellar group here else a conversation like this one would become a death stroke.

Siani
Nandalad!
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