Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

For discussion of Dunedain culture, what it might have looked like and how it worked.

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Greg
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Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Greg »

Disclaimer:
What you're about to read is a very opinion-based post. It's a combination of my written word, which is, naturally, my own opinion, and images generated by another Ranger reenactor, which are, naturally, that reenactor's opinion. I won't put any words in his mouth, but I refuse to use myself as an example of what to do. My kit is constantly undergoing changes and improvements; I would think it haughty and annoying to read someone's post talking about their own kit as a prime example of Dunedain culture, so I won't put you through that either. I'll also use some images from a pair of popular independent films (which I happen to enjoy thoroughly.) No one is required to take what I say as fact or law. It's just my opinion, and it could be seen as advice should you choose to agree with it.

Alright, here we go.

A lot of recent talk has been out and about regarding quality control, this board's history, and reenactment vs. LARP and comparisons of all similar things thereof. I am of the OPINION that the wisest line ever written on this forum in regards to kit building and development was written by Mirimaran on a topic a year or more ago regarding R.D.'s handmade Birka Riding Coat:
Mirimaran wrote:And that is the difference between custom work and off the rack!
Custom work, in this case, can mean anything from handmade to homemade. There CAN be quality items obtained "off-the-shelf", but to reach the look that, IN MY OPINION, personifies what a Ranger should be, nothing can be bought "off-the-shelf".

Let's look at pouches. A pouch bought in a store will work. Of course it will. But it will have a very even coloration, typically, and will, by nature of the beast, have perfectly cut edges, be totally symmetrical, and perhaps even be shiny. After wearing it in the woods, getting it dirty may actually be difficult due to the sealant used on it, so it will take a LOT to show use. This is great for a wallet or a purse in this society. In my opinion, this makes for a poorly-executed Ranger persona. A pouch alone can make you look off-the-shelf.

Clothing. Clothing is the BIGGEST place where the difference between looking legitimate and looking like a cartoon. I will not retract that statement. There are hundreds of Ren Faire goers that looks cartoonish in appearance. Errol Flynn as Robin Hood comes to mind. Solid colors, modern dyes...the list of problems goes on. If you buy it from Museum Replicas Limited, it will look fake. It CAN be modified to look legitimate, but it takes work, and it won't be as durable as if you'd just made it yourself with a pattern using the right materials. You'll save yourself the money if you do it right the first time. Let's look at some examples.

Take a look at the clothing here:
Image
Image

This is an extreme example, but bear with me. All modern Joann's Fabric store materials, all bold, unnatural colors. All would, if used enough to gain a weathered appearance, fall apart because they're not made for heavy use. But they just look plain cartoonish anyway, and this look does not fit into Tolkien's vision of Middle Earth. He wanted Middle Earto to be REAL, and these colors; these fabrics; these styles do not fit into Middle Earth.

So what does? Imperfect pouches. Stained pieces of misshapen leather. Dirt. Coal marks. Sweatstains on bracers. Irregular fabric textures. All of these can be found on historical fabrics. All of these that require wearing and time to develop can happen on historical fabrics without falling apart. None of this can happen with off-the-shelf. Let's see some examples.

:Cue the photo barrage:

Image
Image
Image

Everything in the pictures I just posted was made with historical materials, has dirt on it, is frayed, or otherwise shows wear. Now again, I know that wear comes with time. But you won't see rivets anywhere in there either. Everything is hand-stitched. Rivets and shiny dye are not period, and they stick out obviously. A Great Ranger kit is not shiny. A great Ranger kit is not covered in studs. A great Ranger kit does not look like the armor worn by Drizzt on R.A. Salvatore's Novel Covers. Tolkien wrote about a real world, in a sense, and it needs to look real. It needs to be rugged. It needs to have a purppose; not just looks.

Even I fall prey to making kit items for looks, but I try to ensure that there is an underlying function behind everything. Every day spent in the woods, it seems, I remove something shiny from my kit and replace it with something dull, leather, and/or handmade. And I still get a LOT of things wrong.

Andy didn't. Andy got it right, and I wish we could all live up to his example. For the time being, I just hope it'll help everyone see how easy (and INEXPENSIVE!) legitimacy can be.

Forget the concept of historical accuracy for a moment. I'm all for it, but just forget about it for a second, and replace it with "Middle-Earth Legitimacy". Middle Earth wasn't clothed in "lightweight cotton print solids." Middle Earth was clothed in off-colored linens, wool, and steel. They donned greasy leather and furs. Rusty iron and bronze hardware. If you can't make it historically accurate, make it what he wrote about.
The Fellowship of the Ring wrote:Aragorn had Andúril but no other weapon, and he went forth clad only in rusty green and brown.
That's not Errol Flynn Lincoln Green, mind you. That's sun-faded greasy leather wrapped around worn, patchy linen and wool showing travel stains, bound with whatever was available, fixed on the road, and functional. Something that blends into your surroundings and actually WORKS as camouflage (a problem I still struggle with.)

I apologize if I sound frustrated. I'm really not. But the man who started this all left a great example behind for us to follow while he's unavailable, and I wanted to make sure that was brought to everyone's attention.

Image
Last edited by Greg on Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jbook
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by jbook »

Agree 100%! He looks like he has been there and lived it. You just really can't beat historical fabrics. I have never once bought fabric from Wal-Mart or any other fabric dealers. I buy from people who specialize in historical fabrics made from natural materials. The reason for this is that it stands up to the abuse that one puts it through in the wild. That is the big difference. And it's really not that much more expensive. I would recommend Burnley and Trowbridge or 96 District Fabrics.

Again...you just can't beat natural materials.
Last edited by caedmon on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added links to sites- Jack
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Jonathan B.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Jonathan B. »

Good post Greg. Now I will freely admit to buying fabric from Jo-Ann or sellers on ebay and while not ideal I don't believe my kit has suffered much for it. As for color most period dyes could produce richer and more consistent color than one would expect, Lincoln Green/Lyncolne grene as a name for the color dates to the early 1500's which is much later than we should probably draw from but not too late for the Renaissance Festival goers among us (my self included) to use for that purpose.I have always loved Andy's kit, and think that one wouldn't be remiss to use his as the benchmark for a Dunedain kit. I agree that pouches that are too perfect can ruin the flow of an otherwise great kit but will some what disagree about shiny leather always being a bad thing as period methods can produce a similar look that can take awhile to settle out.

Oh and Jbook thank you for those links as I had never heard of either before.
Last edited by Jonathan B. on Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by caedmon »

I personally am most interested a high degree of fidelity to historic models. I don't generally get into thus sayeth/historical accuracy debates on this forum, and I believe that the best way to encourage is by example. But I'm feeling feisty, and I have a grudge against Joanne's. So since this is bound to come up...

What's wrong with Joanne Fabrics (IMO)

Nothing and everything. Joanne Fabrics, and most every commercial brick & mortar fabric store has problems.

Nothing:
Joanne's is cheap, and will get you a good costume at a reasonable price. The cloth is of middling to low quality but you can select passable stuff.

But it is usually for costume grade clothing, and won't hold up over the long haul.

Everything:

First, everything has gone to quilting fabric. And wool, if you can get it, is:
a blend - I will leave this up to your own conscience.

the wrong type - My local Joanne almost exclusively carries raghook wool. I assume this is standard. Most medieval wools were heavily fulled twills, or woolens. (There were many types, but these you can't go wrong with)

inferior quality - Since it is selected for cheapness and (what barely qualifies as) craft, this wool sucks. I haven't run the numbers for earlier, but just a hundred years ago, 90% of the population of the industrialized world lived on the equivalent of less than $8,000 (today's dollars). Historic wool, since it was handmade and represented a lot of work (and a significant portion to a family's yearly work/income to produce), was of generally of better quality to produce and was meant to last for multiple years and multiple garments.

color - Bright colors are entirely possible with natural/historic dyes. They generally fade quickly. Also you have to consider the likely wealth of your character. Locally available, cheap plant dyes are generally browns, greens, yellows, greys, light blues, and rose red.


But what of linen and cotton?!?

First for a medieval/medieval like setting cotton is problematic in that the type of cotton used in the middle ages is not the type accessible in the middle ages. The technology used for modern cotton was not created until the 19th c. (Eli Whitney - the Cotton Gin)

Linen (and hemp) were widely used in Northern Europe, but as they do not take color well from period methods, they were usually white, and relegated to underclothes. Brightly colored linens are right out.

Ok, and leather?
First Joanne doesn't carry leather, also I can find few historic examples of leather clothing in medieval Europe. protective wear (i.e blacksmith's apron; gloves) and armour; yes. Clothing, no.
-Jack Horner

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Impression: Cædmon Reedmace | bronze founder living in Archet, Breeland. c. 3017
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Willrett »

I agree with everything said so far but a few pints to the negative parts and we speak for myself. I can't really sew all the well so I would rather use a cheaper wool blend material for my first few clothing items so when I mess up it didn't cost me to much. I currently have a decent stock of gray and green wool blend material that cost next to nothing at surplus city. My pants are green surplus army wool blend.
I have one shirt that I purchased from museum reps and it is a basic brown cotton shirt that was a sale item. Is it the best? No, but it will do for now.

Joanns or any box store are good places for patterns, buttons and test material.

Between work and my beautiful (pain in the butt) daughter and regular house stuff I don't have that much time to work on my kit or work on the skills I need to make more of it and make it better so it is slow going and in some cases buying a temp item works for now.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Odigan »

So then, let us talk about standards. Any decent re-enactment group has them. Many think it a dirty word, and believe that setting a standard will frighten off newcomers or make things less fun. Of course, anyone who is unwilling to strive for some sort of standard would think this, while the rest are off actually enjoying the act of trying to surpass those standards.

There is nothing wrong with setting a baseline standard. While we can't exactly exclude persons here based on the "period correctness" of their kit (or would want to), we can establish guidelines for the group to attain at a minimum. And I don't mean something so vague as the "any reasonable attempt" uselessness of the SCA, which merely invites lame excuses as to the unsuitability of almost anything and breeds mediocrity. I refer instead to: Type of fabric (wool, linen, silk, etc.), having no visible machine stitching, no snaps/zippers/velcro/modern fasteners, or whathaveyou. The sorts of things that may be obvious to some and not to others and make great strides towards crafting a believable impression.

The aforementioned excuses and mediocrity are rife in many groups which claim to be re-enactment societies but are truly just recreational social clubs where the members don silly clothes. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but as part of their culture they fear exclusion (likely because they themselves have for so long been excluded) and therefore are unwilling to provide useful criticism or turn away some of the absolutely horrid creations that turn up at their doorstep. Right now you're thinking "Oh, but we don't want to turn away anyone." Admit it, there are plenty of people you'd rather not play with. That's what a group is: a collection of persons related in some way and that - by it's very nature - is exclusive to anyone else! I don't mean this in a mean way, it's just how group dynamics work.
Greg wrote:A great Ranger kit does not look like the armor worn by Drizzt on R.A. Salvatore's Novel Covers.
Nothing should look like that. Ever.
Greg wrote:That's not Errol Flynn Lincoln Green, mind you.
You really don't like Errol Flynn, do you? Personally, his is my favorite portrayal of Robin Hood in film (in television it goes to Michael Praed in Robin of Sherwood). Since noone can seem to agree on precisely what shade Lincoln Green actually is, I'll assume you mean the garish semi-neon Technicolor green Flynn was wearing and not the darker olive drab variety that may or may not also be called Lincoln Green that some of us wear...
Greg wrote:Imperfect pouches. Stained pieces of misshapen leather. Dirt. Coal marks. Sweatstains on bracers. Irregular fabric textures.
One should be careful not to take a cue from Hollywood and carry this too far. There has long been a trend now to make persons in period-set pieces "dirty." There is a fairly distinct line between believable everyday wear and grime and outright filth. Our ancestors (in whatever Age they may have been) were not filthy anymore than they were pristine. Portrayals in visual media (as film) are representative. The older Hollywood epics had what today appear as outlandish, gaudy costuming (some of which is actually more accurate that what passes for such today!) but it was tied closely to the theatre and came from an age when the cinema actually gave us a story and acting. Nowadays they just try to woo us with over-cut fight scenes, gore, and grime.

The gallery of The Company of Saynt George gives a good impression of lived-in but clean attire: http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/?q=en/Gallery
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Ringulf »

Let's face it folks we were not all born with great kits or for the most part blessed enough to have them handed to us. Even the guys and gals you see with phenominal, authentic kit started somewhere. I recall even seeing some folks rangering with partial kits and t shirts and jeans. And what is wrong with that? Nothing! We all get into this from some other situation and even if we were died in the wool Tolkien fanatics I am sure we have seen our share of bad garb, costumes and re-makes of mundane clothing.
Should we stop there? Throw up our hands and say, "Well that's all I want. or can do." ?
Well I hope not, that would be a shame, but if that is the level at which you feel most comfortable more power to you.

You may be missing a wonderful opportunity though.
As Greg has said several times in the posts, (and I am paraphrasing here)

"X" is what I am using right now, I plan on making "X+" to replace it.
Normally that is when, "I get the: Time, funds, skills or materials."

Thinking about kit has made me embark on a redesign of much of the garb I once was happy with. It is good to grow, to expand your horizons.

I try and think about it's purpose, it's creation (what it took to creat it) and how I can do the best I can with what I have, even if it is a stepping stone to where I would like to be.

I think the most important thing is to come, enjoy, learn, experience, share.
If you get involved, you will undoubtably see there are things you like. Determine what they are and try to learn more about them. Then take a whack at making it for yourself. At the very least it will give you an intimate understanding and appreciation of what it was like to make. Then if you are compleatly convinced that that is not your thing, for whatever reason, you will recognise it's quality when go to purchase one.

Like Billy Kristal says..."It's a process.."

I am all for standards as suggestions and I daresay that I have never striven for mediocraty, yet I am much more apt to do as Ceadmon sugests and simply lead by example as the exclusivity that seems to be touted here more and more lately, suggests that there is only one way to go about things and it is hard and fast and it must be according to my standards.
I really don't feel that is neccisarry. I mean I don't think anyone is gonna blush or feel enraged if you are wearing a cotton cloak. Is it good for someone to know it is cotton not egyptian cotton or Umbarian cotton, well yeah, but knowing the facts, then trying to get as close to them as possible is a far shot from mediocraty. It is mearly people learning and growing to reach what is good.
I am Ringulf the Dwarven Woodsman, I craft leather, wood, metal, and clay,
I throw axes, seaxes, and pointy sticks, And I fire my bow through the day.
Come be my ally, lift up your mead! We'll search out our foes and the Eagles we'll feed! :mrgreen:
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by caedmon »

Odigan wrote:The gallery of The Company of Saynt George gives a good impression of lived-in but clean attire: http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/?q=en/Gallery
++ for the John Howe reference!
-Jack Horner

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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by caedmon »

Please do not take from me a tone of judgement. My first ren faire persona featured a dayglow great kilt and a viking backstory. If it wasn't a few people gently pointing me to look to historical accuracy, I'd probably still be there.

In my experience sewing issues, poor materials, and patterns have been the smallest problem to having a kick ass kit. The real problem for me has always been not having the right knowledge.

It is my sincere belief that authenticity, whether in historical or created, can be done on a small budget. (The original intent for this domain: budgetauthenticity.org is for a site to promote that.) Sewing knowledge can be gained. poor materials can be mitigated with creativity, and fortunately Dunedain patterns should be rather easy. I will devote a few separate posts to each of these topics.
-Jack Horner

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Impression: Cædmon Reedmace | bronze founder living in Archet, Breeland. c. 3017
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Ernildir »

Inspiring words, friends.
Odigan wrote:That's what a group is: a collection of persons related in some way and that - by it's very nature - is exclusive to anyone else! I don't mean this in a mean way, it's just how group dynamics work.
Just curious, Odigan -- have you read The Four Loves by C.S. Lewis? What you said there instantly brought to my mind his chapter on Philia.


And y'all have just inspired me to finally get around to hand-sewing some legitimate garments. I have been wearing a long-sleeved polo shirt and modern pants under my Ranger garb for much too long. I'm thinking something similar to what Elegost wears in his "casual Ranger garb." https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=1 ... =inline&zw

What fabric do you recommend for Sunny SoCal's climate? Linen, perhaps? Anyone know of where I can find a pattern similar to what Elegost has here? Or any other tunic suggestions?

Thanks.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by caedmon »

Ernildhir wrote:...I'm thinking something similar to what Elegost wears in his "casual Ranger garb." https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=1 ... =inline&zw
Um.... better link? Please? :shock:

Ernildhir wrote:What fabric do you recommend for Sunny SoCal's climate? Linen, perhaps? Anyone know of where I can find a pattern similar to what Elegost has here? Or any other tunic suggestions?
Most people relent for hot climes, and suggest that colored linen is good. Also cotton was in use around the Mediterranean in the middle ages, but it was expensive. I however would like to submit this picture of my great-great-grandfather cooling off in the shade: Santa Cruz, California June 1903. He's cooling off, because he's removed his wool suit jacket, but retains his wool pants and waistcoat.

Image

Wool is interesting. it doesn't have to be hot. It doesn't have to be itchy. I'd seriously look into suiting/tropical weight woolens, like:

http://www.bblackandsons.com/olive-trop ... p-509.html tropical weight olive wool
http://www.burnleyandtrowbridge.com/1200-16.aspx linsey woolsey- Virginia Cloth
http://www.burnleyandtrowbridge.com/1200-10.aspx light weight cinnamon wool serge
-Jack Horner

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Impression: Cædmon Reedmace | bronze founder living in Archet, Breeland. c. 3017
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Ringulf »

Since I am in Florida I can not ignore the climate however much I try. I am a northerner and would rather be in cooler climes in some ways. But since I have been "assigned" down here in Southern Ithilian I was thinking of ways to make my kit reflect that.
My two new tunics are of a very light gauzy material and wick away the everpresent sweat that I seem to be plagued with, and my original cloak is a very open weave, lindsey woolsy type fabric that I got as a costume but realized that it bore a strong resembelance to that type of garment (though I doubt highly that it is entirely natural fibers. My new cloak for the SCA feels like cotton duck but it will rarely be used in the warm weather.
I am Ringulf the Dwarven Woodsman, I craft leather, wood, metal, and clay,
I throw axes, seaxes, and pointy sticks, And I fire my bow through the day.
Come be my ally, lift up your mead! We'll search out our foes and the Eagles we'll feed! :mrgreen:
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Ernildir »

Sorry... I was afraid that link might not work.


Thank you for those fabric suggestions. I love the look of that olive wool. You sure I wouldn't over heat and die in it? :mrgreen: I might just try that one.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by Ernildir »

And now the picture is much too large. :p Oh well.
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Re: Dunedain Culture in a Nutshell

Post by caedmon »

Ernildhir wrote:Sorry... I was afraid that link might not work.

Thank you for those fabric suggestions. I love the look of that olive wool. You sure I wouldn't over heat and die in it? :mrgreen: I might just try that one.
I can make no guarantees. I can only offer my experience and what I know of history. Someone to talk to in your area is Gwen at http://historicenterprises.com/. She sells both wool and linen outer clothes, here's one that would be perfect for a ranger impression: http://historicenterprises.com/kyrtle-g ... ath=99_190
-Jack Horner

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Impression: Cædmon Reedmace | bronze founder living in Archet, Breeland. c. 3017
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