Fascinating Read...

For discussion of Dunedain culture, what it might have looked like and how it worked.

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caedmon
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Fascinating Read...

Post by caedmon »

The most cursory reading of Beowulf alongside any Arthurian romance reveals two drastically different images of the warrior within British literature. One can hardly imagine the arm-ripping, ocean-swimming Geatish warrior riding down the lists to joust with his fellows. At the same time, the courtly Lancelot would scarcely seem at home among the loud laughter and boasts of the mead hall. ...

.... While the chivalric ideal has continued to appear in British literature, Anglo-Saxon heroism with its bond between lord and thane has largely dropped away. The writings of J.R.R. Tolkien provide the striking exception to this. In his own fiction, Tolkien both incorporates and responds to the Anglo-Saxon warrior ideal, praising the friendship between a lord and his thane as the definition of heroism while condemning the pursuit of glory.

http://www.hillsdale.edu/images/userIma ... olkien.pdf
-Jack Horner

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Impression: Cædmon Reedmace | bronze founder living in Archet, Breeland. c. 3017
kaelln

Re: Fascinating Read...

Post by kaelln »

No time to read this link this morning, but my immediate impression is that there is actually very little of the medieval in Tolkien. For me, the medieval is defined by feudalism and dominance of the church, neither of which appear in Tolkien. Instead, what I see is a mix of different times and cultures. The Shire appears to be based on pre-industrial and post-feudal England, an England that someone romantically inclined, such as Tolkien, might imagine that the late 1700's were like. Rohan, on the other hand, I would argue is pre-Christian, Iron-Age Pagan culture, with influences from the Continental Celts, Scandinavians, and Monguls for good measure. You could conceivably make the case for Gondor being medieval, but there is really no good evidence for it that I can think of, and in medieval times, the absent throne would have long been claimed multiple times and fought over until someone claimed it. If anything, Gondor strikes me more as a European-ized Rome. As for the Dwarves, that comes across as Viking to me, although of course, "dwarf-inated". I can't really think of a good model for the Elven culture.

Other examples also spring to mind, though. The Corsairs would seem to be based on the pirates of the 1700's, the Easterlings on the Chinese, etc., although most of these are not very well fleshed out. But when I look, I see no evidence of medieval influence anywhere. Instead, I see a marriage of pre-Christian Pagan culture with the 1700's, with gunpowder taken out of the equation and replaced with a weak and subtle magic. Even the concept of "Elves" and "Dwarves" comes from pre-Christian Pagan culture, and in Medieval times Legolas and Gimli would have been called "demons", and Galdalf would have been burned at the stake or hanged for consorting with the Devil.

That's why I get puzzled by the insistence on "re-enacting" Tolkien using the Medieval as a guide. If I were to try to recreate Tolkien's technology for things like clothing, weapons etc, I would say just take the technologies of the 1700's as a guide, provided you subtract gunpowder and electricity from the equation, and that stylistically, anything from the 1700's or Iron Age Europe aside from togas and powdered wigs would be fair game.
kaelln

Re: Fascinating Read...

Post by kaelln »

A correction: You could even say gunpowder exists, after all, Gandalf uses fireworks. It just has not progressed to the point of being used as a weapon, although it looks like Saruman is thinking that way, if I recall correctly.
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Ringulf
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Re: Fascinating Read...

Post by Ringulf »

Heh Heh, You go man! I enjoyed that little run down, I wonder what you could have done if you DID have the time! LOL :wink:
I am Ringulf the Dwarven Woodsman, I craft leather, wood, metal, and clay,
I throw axes, seaxes, and pointy sticks, And I fire my bow through the day.
Come be my ally, lift up your mead! We'll search out our foes and the Eagles we'll feed! :mrgreen:
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Eledhwen
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Re: Fascinating Read...

Post by Eledhwen »

I am very much with you Kaelin. Nice commentary.

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Ringulf
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Re: Fascinating Read...

Post by Ringulf »

kaelln wrote:A correction: You could even say gunpowder exists, after all, Gandalf uses fireworks. It just has not progressed to the point of being used as a weapon, although it looks like Saruman is thinking that way, if I recall correctly.

Huzzah! For non-weaponized gunpowder!!!

I hear Dale is lousy with the stuff! Must have been one of those Dwarven metalurical experiments gone wrong. (It seems the toymakers always sift through the rubbish bins and find the coolest uses for things!)
I am Ringulf the Dwarven Woodsman, I craft leather, wood, metal, and clay,
I throw axes, seaxes, and pointy sticks, And I fire my bow through the day.
Come be my ally, lift up your mead! We'll search out our foes and the Eagles we'll feed! :mrgreen:
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E.MacKermak
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Re: Fascinating Read...

Post by E.MacKermak »

After having skimmed the paper, I do find he has some valid points. Most of his premise is that the attitudes of the Rohirrim closely reflect the attitudes of the Anglo-Saxons of the pagan and early Christian time. Specifically, he speaks about the loyalty between the king and his retainers. Loyalty which was there even when, under the influence of evil, the king was not acting kingly (for lack of a better word). The relationship of a King to his retainers (thegns/thanes for A-S) was highly developed, as long as the king continued to lead, and ultimately to win battles and provide loot. The loyalty in the books is somewhat romanticized in that in the real world, if a king were to treat his retainers poorly, stop fighting for loot, and stop giving gifts from that loot, he would rapidly find himself with fewer retainers. This stays a steady theme until well into the Christian period of the Anglo-Saxon culture. Of course, writing a fantasy series, he could romanticize a little, after all he wasn't writing a history book.

Just some thoughts...
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Mirimaran
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Re: Fascinating Read...

Post by Mirimaran »

I agree with everyone else, Kaelin hit it on the head. Excellent insight!

Tolkien compared Gondor to ancient Egypt, mostly in part to the grandeur of the civilization and the aspect that much of what was left of the skill of the ancient Numernorians was lost to the people of Gondor, but none of the pride of their people. I think that he blended his skills as a linguist, writer, historian and scholar quite well.

Ken
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Re: Fascinating Read...

Post by Fallsofdragon »

Some provide Inspiration and Courage, even though not as king and us not as subjects, I feel these qualities are ageless in fiction, story telling, but most importantly in reality, so even many years removed from our age, these things, warriors admire to the past, and seek always, to the future.
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Re: Fascinating Read...

Post by Beornmann »

The original link seems to be down. Any hint of a copy stored or new link somewhere?
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