Dunedain and Numenorean Music

[Eärendur]

So, I was reading a few old threads about music, and it made me think: What would Dunedain music sound like? Now, the thread I was reading related mostly to instruments. What I'm thinking about is more style-wise. Have you ever heard a song and thought, "that sounds like it could have come from high Numenor at the peak of its glory," or "that has what I would consider a distinct Dunedain feel to it"?

If you have, post a link to the song here!

I imagine that Numenorean music would be fairly complex, maybe somewhat similar to classical music from the 1700's... But sort of optimistic, powerful, and majestic.

A few weeks ago, I was picturing in my head what Numenorean culture at the height of its glory might be like.. (due to this forum, actually; I was thinking of possible settings for a fan-fic short story). Anyway, while I was engaged in this exercise of imagination, this song came up on my pandora channel.... I didn't really notice the lyrics, but the instrumental parts really seemed to "fit." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqjWv3cxmtw

So do you have any songs that reminded you of Numenor or the Dunedain?

[Mirimaran]

Love Blackmore's Night! We've seen them in concert twice, and the song does bring Tolkien to mind. Mostly for me I guess it is soundtracks. Good topic!

Ken

[Eärendur]

I thought I would post this one, not exactly dunedain, but still tolkien, and worth hearing if you haven't heard it yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8FYjyvsd00

[Greg]

I would actually expect the Dunedain's music to be full of laments, for starters. Their entire continent disappeared...they had to relocate their entire culture. That's kinda harsh. So I'd imagine their music to be somber, open, not necessarily even strictly-rhythmic, and perhaps I'll even spring to use the word "Ethereal". Certainly not A-Tonal, but certainly not a pop song based around three chords, either.

Going back earlier, I'd like to think, in my opinion, due to our assumptions of Tolkien's intentional time frame for Middle Earth as an early history of western Europe, that music of Numenor wouldn't necessarily be as optimistic, complex, and "studied" as 1700's music can be. I would reach back more into early Celtic music, using perhaps some archaic forms of strings, flutes/whistles, and harps. The music of Numenor during its heyday would certainly be happy, and as complex as one can get with a limited number of instruments, but without going beyond simple harmony as found in and just beyond Gregorian Chant. Not in that style...just not much more complex than chant. At that point in history, the 5th was the predominant harmonic interval...thirds weren't very popular, so tones were still very open.

Just my two cents. I'm actually working on a few little charts for fun based on this concept using a similar instrumentation to what I just described. Everyone's still entitled to their own opinion...won't say mine is more right than anyone else's.

[Yavion]

I would like to respectfully disagree that earlier music was not complex nor "studied."

The Hurdy Gurdy is complicated! LOL.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j1KmZuU-dw[/youtube]

[Eärendur]

Not to get too OT, but regarding the complexity of high numenorean culture, music, &c...

There are a few things to take into account here:
-Early on, they had much trade and (presumably) exchange of knowledge with the high elves of the west
-Our own "high" technology in current days was developed over a relatively short period of time (~400 years)
-Numenoreans lived for hundreds of years. When you are intelligent and inquisitive, you are bound to figure some things out living that long.
-They were known for the superiority of their craft; much (or at least some) of what the other peoples of middle earth knew about crafts such as shipbuilding (for example) was taught by visiting Numenoreans.
-I recall reading somewhere (I can't recall where exactly) that in the later years, with sauron present, they had ships that moved without sails, were faster, and more ugly.... In fact I think there was also a place that said the Numenoreans created ships to go on the air to try to find the straight road to the west, but were unsuccessful.
-Much of their craft (or "technology," if you prefer) was lost with the fall of Numenor, or shortly thereafter. One of the great themes throughout LOTR, and a big part of what makes it so heart-piercing, is the theme of loss. (For example, the Dunedain descendants at the time of LOTR could no longer create indestructible structures like Orthanc or the first wall of Minas Tirith)

Taking these together, I tend not to think of Numenor as necessarily what people would call pre-medieval. It is a culture that doesn't fit into any pre-conceived time period.

I think Tolkien's own artwork supports this: He made two drawings (that I know of) showing Numenorean cultural artwork: A tile: http://www.councilofelrond.com/wp-conte ... anTile.jpg
And a rug: http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii6 ... 6f83d6.png


Incidentally, I would agree that Dunedain rangers would probably mostly sing laments, as well as epics from their history (and the elves' history) (remember that Butterbur said Strider could tell "a rare good tale" when he had the mind to.) But I think their style, and perhaps even to some extent the tunes and rhythmic structure, would be influenced both by the elvish style and by the earlier Numenorean works. I would imagine that high numenor would have masters of music as well as other skills, and that there would be popular and well-known songs within that culture.

[Greg]

I would like to respectfully disagree that earlier music was not complex nor "studied."

The Hurdy Gurdy is complicated! LOL.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j1KmZuU-dw[/youtube]

Pardon me...allow me to rephrase: Not AS studied. Earlier music WAS simpler, and now is, as a result, viewed as less complex in both harmony, instrumentation, and structure. I'm a huge proponent of archaic forms of music (I'm a classical/jazz trained Trumpet player, but I spend far more time these days on my whistles and Bodhran), and will defend them to the end. I simply meant my comment in comparison to later forms of music. Forgive the mis-communication.

Earendur, that's a very valid argument. I just have a hard time picturing a baroque violin in Numenor.

[Udwin]

Not to get too OT, but regarding the complexity of high numenorean culture, music, &c...
There are a few things to take into account here: ...
Taking these together, I tend not to think of Numenor as necessarily what people would call pre-medieval. It is a culture that doesn't fit into any pre-conceived time period.
I think Tolkien's own artwork supports this...

Ack, at risk of getting onto a further tangent!...
The passages to which I believe you were referring, which I repost here for others' enlightenment.:
*"The teaching of Sauron has led to the invention of ships of metal that traverse the seas without sails, but which are hideous in the eyes of those who have not abandoned or forgotten Tol Eressea; to the building of grim fortresses and unlovely towers; and to missiles that pass with a noise like thunder to strike their targets many miles away."
“Our ships go now without the wind, and many are made of metal that sheareth rocks, and they sink not in calm or storm; but they are no longer fair to look upon. But our shields are impenetrable, our swords cannot be withstood, our darts are like thunder and pass over leagues unerring.” (History of Middle-earth V)
(Furthermore, The Lost Road says that exiled Numenoreans after the Downfall, trying in vain to fly the Straight Road to Valinor, made aircraft (1987, p. 17).)

E., I had never before seen those images of the Professor's Numenorean artifacts!; they immediately brought to mind his image of a Numenorean helmet called a karma. All three exhibits seem to be of a similar stylized aesthetic, which almost immediately brought to my mind the Minoan frescoes of Knossos (Crete) or Akrotiri (Thera) (Remember that Minoan culture is most commonly held up as the source of the Atlantis myth); and of course Tolkien associated his Numenor (Atlante-the downfallen) story as the 'real' Atlantis. I have lots more notes on this sort of thing for a forthcoming post, but alas, nothing relating to music!

[Eledhwen]

I have never really seen the Numenorean culture as particularly medieval, but rather as something that had elements of several cultures blended to create something entirely unique. Which is why I do not tend to cleave to things medieval when working with my Ranger kit and clothing.

Eledhwen

[Mirimaran]

Just thinking about it again, one soundtrack that I listen to that gets me in that Rangering state of mind, or that bittersweet feeling I have about Middle-earth is the Robin of Sherwood soundtrack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNXMfRvEN28
I always found the show a little sad, in a way, as in the happiness and freedom they find in the forest will be short-lived, but lived nonetheless. Just shows that not everything has to be "medieval" to get one in that mood

Ken

[Ernildir]

I've always felt that this piece captures the feel of Numenorean music pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEWJT1Gc__U

[Eledhwen]

Giving it more thought, and considering that most of their more complex cultural basics came from the Elves, I tend to think their music would have a lot of harp, flute, and drum in it..with some other strings or reeds. Not so much the brasses outside of martial music and marches.

During the height of Numenor they were seafarers and never forgot that. Aragorn and the others often think back on the glories of Romena and Andunie, as passed to them from their elders. By the time we get the Faitfhul exiled to Endor we probably have more brasses, but I suspect they'd still have a lot of 'sea' like music, or music reminiscent of the sea and their great fleets of old.

Even the armor drawn by Tolkien is reminiscent of the sea; the helm is distinctly nautiloid in appearance. I happen to like that helm too. LOL

Anyway, that is only my feeling on it. When I work with harp and flute, that is what I strive for...a feeling of the sea, with occasional marches and whatnot. Melancholy is, by the Third Age, probably very present and I would suspect older musics of that sort would be preserved pretty well.

Eledhwen

[Southwind]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYFWyQggIa0 (Tri Martolod by Alan Stivell)

Hadn't thought of it before, but this actually could fit pretty well under the category of Numenorean. In any case it's worth a listen. Celtic-ish, but not what you would normally think of since it's Breton rather than Irish. Lots of harp. Plus, it's about sailors...

[Eledhwen]

I think that fits very well.

Eledhwen

[Chris Russo]

Here's my thought: Numenor was a vast and (relatively) advanced civilization, one that had its roots in Elvish culture but which had taken its own path in later years; it started with Sindarin its most prominent language and Quenya the language of official documents, but it ended with those languages preserved only by the Faithful as Adunaic took over. Add to that, that much was lost when Numenor sank, and more was lost as Arnor faded and Gondor dwindled. (Always in LOTR we have the sense of dwindling, of present things being lesser than the glory of the past.)

From that, I would expect Dunedain music to sound roughly like:

Renaissance music's complexity, with a heavy dash of Celtic influence, but simplified and played on a few rustic instruments.

(Imagine, if you will, that tomorrow our "Western" civilization ended, and we who survive to build the next civilization still remember the music of our age, but no longer have the means to properly replicate it. Imagine someone playing "Hey Jude" or "Stairway to Heaven" or "Bad Romance" or "Moonlight Sonata" with only a pair of pipes, a fiddle, and a small tom-tom.)