Dunedain fashion

For discussion of Dunedain culture, what it might have looked like and how it worked.

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Elleth
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Dunedain fashion

Post by Elleth »

Related to Greg's post on the "Brisk Morning Outing" thread, which veered into fashion -
Greg wrote:Might I ask what direction you're going for Dunedain women's clothing? I'm working on the same topic myself, for my wife.
I've had Norse styles on the brain quite a bit lately, but I'm consciously trying to clear my mind of that. I think 8th-11th c. Britain is a better starting point, with a dose of Romano-British for the "remnant of lost glory" vibe. I'm not at all sure how much PJ/Weta to bring in for the Eldar influence, but it makes sense some Elvish sensibility would shine through in bits and pieces. I don't want to go full WETA, but I do think art nouveau's early stages as a Western adaptation of Japanese aesthetics has some lessons for human adaptation of elvish work.

In looking around for inspiration, I found this image by tindarien on DeviantArt, and quite like it:
Image
I'm especially fond of the leftmost design, and I love the mantle! I could swear I've seen the same design in (perhaps Pre-Raphealite?) depictions of medieval Irish royalty, though I can't find the reference now. Regardless, there's an understated regalness to the silhouette I adore.

For Dunedain I'd be inclined however to use more the wools and colors of NW Europe/British Isles than the Byzantine influences tindarien envisions for Gondor. Greens and russets are to my taste, but I think there's lots of room for variation in color. Less so for fabrics: I don't think the Dunedain have much access to silks and brocades of eastern and southern lands. (Though some from elvish connections makes sense.) Generally speaking, I'd expect ornament to be more on the order of woolen embroidery or tablet weaving, fur trims, and metalwork - just because the former are more locally available, and the latter are preserved more easily across the generations. (Ring of Barahir anyone?)

More generically though - I'm curious what thoughts the community has on design elements?

I know we have a few drawings from Tolkien himself. I confess I'm not terribly fond of many of the drawings on the page, but Urthgard's bracer gave me a new appreciation for what they can look like once realized in craft:

Image


I'm starting to play with some ideas for buckles, brooches, and so forth on paper, and should be able to post some sketches sometime in the coming week.
My fella's been making noises about getting into metal casting, and these would be grand introduction into the space. (Plus worst case, there's always Shapeways and a foundry)

Any thoughts from the community?
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Re: Dunedain fashion

Post by Greg »

Definitely with you on starting out roughly in 8th-11th cen Britain. I'm currently sketching some adaptations on gored gowns/Kyrtles as main garments, with some slightly more fantastical additions, like subtle Hobbit fashion influences (for a lady in Arnor, being around the culture) and things like that mantle pinned on the shoulder, about which we clearly agree.

Also completely in agreement on the fabric and ornamentation topic...linens and wool are going to be the order of the day, here, with embroidery rather than some of the fancier stuff.

Cool find! Can't wait to see how this all starts coming together.
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Re: Dunedain fashion

Post by Udwin »

Hmmmm. The Dunedain are kind of frustrating...aside from Strider and the Grey Co., I don't think we ever see one in person, and those individuals are described in such broad strokes with few concrete details, I think you have a lot of freedom in your design process. A few thoughts:
Are we talking "what would a Dunedain woman wear"? or "What would a female Dunedain wear in a traveling/'ranger-ing' capacity"?
If the latter, I don't see her going into the woodlands of Eriador in any sort of drape-y, flow-y dress.
Personally, I would consider 8-11th c. Britain much too late to be drawing reference from for Arnorian Dunedain purposes.
Considering the Byzantine-Gondor connections, you might be able to bring in some 'roman' influences (if you take Arnor to be analogous to the western Empire).
While I agree that linen and wool are probably the way to go, if we are to take Tolk's vague suggestions as fact--that the Dunedain lived in the Angle--then silk could be very probably be integrated into clothing: we know Elrond had silk handkerchiefs!

In terms of decoration, I got nothin' for ya. I'm not the best at coming up with anything beyond geometric 'stone age' motifs. I did get my hands on a copy of Hammond & Scull's Artist and Illustrator, and got a nice scan of one of JRRT's vegetative doodles. Was able to pick out some 'flowers' that could be used for decorative motifs. I'll be doing the same with his Numenorean textile designs shortly; there are some good shapes in them that could work for Arnorian purposes.
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Re: Dunedain fashion

Post by Eledhwen »

Found those some time ago. I personally love the mixture of Late Roman, Byzantine, and Norman clothing designs. Made my own gowns like those.

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Re: Dunedain fashion

Post by Elleth »

Eledhwen - neat! I'd love to see how they came out.

Udwin - thank you so much for posting those designs!

A few thoughts:
Are we talking "what would a Dunedain woman wear"? or "What would a female Dunedain wear in a traveling/'ranger-ing' capacity"?
If the latter, I don't see her going into the woodlands of Eriador in any sort of drape-y, flow-y dress.
For the most part, I agree. Time and place for everything: some situations call for a touch of grace, bother be darned. : )
But that said, my regular "taurandir"-ing clothes will be fairly similar to those of the Rangers here.

Hmmmm. The Dunedain are kind of frustrating...aside from Strider and the Grey Co., I don't think we ever see one in person, and those individuals are described in such broad strokes with few concrete details..
Yes, the "Rangers lived apart in the wild" theme has a lot of implied space to it. I mean - someone's birthing these guys, singing lays of Beleriand to the little ones, and packing sammiches. : )
And if it's only the women of the surrounding pre-Numenorian peoples of Eriador, then there's no pure line of Numenor at all anymore. But since Aragorn is around, we know there has to be at least a trace of it.

So in outposts or villages or shattered ruins or travelling caravans like the Roma: the Dunedain must exist in Eriador in more than just scraggly hunting camps of Rangers alone. Maybe not much more - but something.

Personally, I'm partial to the idea of scattered villages and the occasional tiny secluded "Lindisfarne" trying to keep the embers of old Arnor banked for brighter days. Not with the success of an Imladris perhaps, nor with the glory of Minas Tirith - but something more than mud and deerskins nonetheless.
Personally, I would consider 8-11th c. Britain much too late to be drawing reference from for Arnorian Dunedain purposes.
Considering the Byzantine-Gondor connections, you might be able to bring in some 'roman' influences (if you take Arnor to be analogous to the western Empire).
The timeline of Middle Earth is odd: call it the influence of the elves or just Tokien's love of the pre-mechanistic heroic age, but there's a certain discontinuity in the fact that the end of the Third Age seems to be technologically (and culturally!) largely indistinguishable from the middle of the Second.

I think that PJ's team did a mostly-good job in going for archetypal feels of cultures, rather than observing a strict technological/economic continuity. There's bones I'd pick (Laketown!!!) - but by and large they did a decent job I think.

So anyhow, most of my inclination to place the moorings of late 3rd-Age Dunedain in Dark Ages Britain is just that seems to be where the good Professor drew the most water from the well.
That said, the "preserving light against the darkness" aspect of their culture is another reason I'm especially drawn to the Irish monastic tradition / locale of the British Isles, where you have those little lights of learning kept alive. It's a nice resonance.

So largely 8th c. feel and silhouette - but less knotwork and Norse/AngloSaxon/late Celtic design motifs. More leaves and stars and wings and waves and vines.

My two silver pennies, anyhow. :)
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Re: Dunedain fashion

Post by Manveruon »

Fascinating discussion! I think I agree with basically all of your general thoughts, Elleth.
Elleth wrote:
So in outposts or villages or shattered ruins or travelling caravans like the Roma: the Dunedain must exist in Eriador in more than just scraggly hunting camps of Rangers alone. Maybe not much more - but something.

Personally, I'm partial to the idea of scattered villages and the occasional tiny secluded "Lindisfarne" trying to keep the embers of old Arnor banked for brighter days. Not with the success of an Imladris perhaps, nor with the glory of Minas Tirith - but something more than mud and deerskins nonetheless.
This is an interesting idea to me, for sure. In the fan film, "Born of Hope" (which, quite honestly, I never really cared for, but I am in the minority there, I think), they depicted the Dunedain as having smallish village settlements scattered about somewhat, and they had a slightly Norse/Anglo-saxon feel to them. The idea was okay, but something felt slightly off to me. I always felt like the Dunedain were a bit more nomadic, so the idea of Dunedain "caravans" is very attractive in my mind. I could absolutely see them having a sort of Romani-influenced, "welp, time to pack up the waggons and move on to the next habitable spot" culture, but I suppose the society could be broken up into two categories: the nomadic "gypsy" Dundain, wandering from place to place and never staying long, and the sort of "monastic" Dunedain, who hold small settlements and fortresses as bastions of knowledge and history in the North (or, I suppose, three categories, counting the lone, wandering rangers, scattered in the wild).

As for fashions, yes, I think a Migration-Period vibe is a great place to start, and I love the idea that there would be quite a few subtle Celtic elements thrown in, but with less knotwork, and more emphasis on the motifs established as being distinctively Numenorean in descent, as you've mentioned above.
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Elleth
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Re: Dunedain fashion

Post by Elleth »

Per Greg's request for the kirtle pattern I've used: here's the gist of it:
kirtle-patterns.jpg
kirtle-patterns.jpg (15.11 KiB) Viewed 13787 times
Top is the real one: it's derived if I recall correctly from work by Regia Anglorum, and as you'll see is fairly similar in cut to the Nockert tunic common here: just longer. The main difference in cut is that it's made from a fairly light-weight wool, and taken in at the sides along one's silhouette to be mostly form-fitting. That then means one needs a way to get in and out: lacing up either front or back (both were used: mine was up the front for convenience's sake).

Some modern reconstructions have more shaped set in sleeves like a modern dress: I don't think I buy that for earlier eras, though I've heard someone mention in passing extant originals made in such a way.

These sleeves are quite short: just above the elbow. This kirtle was designed to be worn over another of almost identical cut, but of a linen with longer sleeves, giving a result something like this:
medieval-kirtle-drawing.jpg
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... and I don't like it. The high neck our group used (can't recall why, but it was the standard) is unbecoming, and the sleeves are a pain: too long to flow nicely with an underdress, too short to be practical in themselves. So tentatively I'll be doing something like the bottom sketch: same general idea, but fixing the parts I don't like. The sleeves will taper to mostly fit the forearm: whether I use anglo-saxon hooks or a lacing cord to close them up I've not decided. Likewise the main body: either I'll move the lacing opening to the back, or (more likely) I'll just cut it a little looser so that it can be pulled on and off, and use a wide girdle or the like to get definition back. I may add more gores either to the sides or Nockert-style to the center: I need to make a muslin and play with the idea first to see what I think about that.

Then rather than the sideless surcoats our 14th c. group used, something more like the wide-sleeved overgown you see in the picture above. Same basic design as the first kirtle: just shorter and with flared sleeves.

Nothing set in stone (fabric) yet though. The whole affair might be done by next Yule. (so much to do!) : )
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Re: Dunedain fashion

Post by Elleth »

The following has been asked via PM:
How would one stitch lacing holes/slots/slits what-have-you into wool? What exactly does that look like? Do you happen to have a picture of the construction, be it on a garment you like or not, simply for demonstrative purposes? What would the lacing material be?
First: the holes are simple eyelets.
kirtle-eyelets.jpg
kirtle-eyelets.jpg (163.89 KiB) Viewed 13603 times
Rosalie Gilbert has an excellent little tutorial here:
http://rosaliegilbert.com/eyelets.html

As to the the lacing material, it's simply braided or wound cord.
Plain old wool knitting yarn braided or knotted on a lucet would work fine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh3l85F9LAE
(not my video)

Alternately you could purchase linen points. The 24" ones sold by Historic Enterprises are a little short for this application, but are a good start:
http://historicenterprises.com/index.ph ... ts_id=1596

Linen will wear a little better, but wool is nice and soft: you hardly notice it's there at all.

And finally, you'll want to either add some chapes to the end:
http://historicenterprises.com/index.ph ... ts_id=1116

Or purchase a bodkin:
http://www.goosebay-workshops.com/Sewing-Items

... because otherwise lacing a gown up is a frustrating task that takes forever.


Last thing: I grew up lacing ren-faire/SCA bodices and such in the modern "tennis shoe" fashion - you hold two ends and cross them over each other as you lace up the garment:
mrl-gown.jpg
mrl-gown.jpg (54.48 KiB) Viewed 13603 times
http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-588-fai ... dress.aspx
(as an aside - some of MRL costume photos I swear haven't changed since the '90s!)

The historically correct method is a single cord laced up, as in this 15th c. Madonna:
fouquet_madonna1450dtl1.jpg
fouquet_madonna1450dtl1.jpg (22.84 KiB) Viewed 13603 times
(via https://sew4consdotcom.wordpress.com/20 ... otehardie/ )

... though I suspect either would work in a M-E context.


All that said, I'm starting to lean more towards the gown-and-peliçon combination, which if the undergown is full enough doesn't need lacing at all.

We'll see - sometime by Yule. :)
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
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