Numenorean design motifs

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caedmon
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby caedmon » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:37 pm

Elleth wrote:Oh no - not the "how many points does an Arnornian star have?" debate! All is lost! :mrgreen:



Yeah, When designing the MERF logo I ignored the debate and mostly went with personal preference. I didn't want a nautical star or Magen Dawid, and seven points was just to Song of Ice & Fire for me.

Combined with the idea that the Ranger's star brooch could double as a cloak clasp.
-Jack Horner

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Impression: Boater Wesman ( Balku'npâ Adúnerama ) bronze founder living in Archet, Breelander of mixed dúnedain descent. c. 3017
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caedmon
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby caedmon » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:42 pm

caedmon wrote:
Elleth wrote:Oh no - not the "how many points does an Arnornian star have?" debate! All is lost! :mrgreen:



Yeah, When designing the MERF logo I ignored the debate and mostly went with personal preference. I didn't want a nautical star or Magen Dawid, and seven points was just to Song of Ice & Fire for me.

Combined with the idea that the Ranger's star brooch could double as a cloak clasp.
-Jack Horner

----------------------------
Impression: Boater Wesman ( Balku'npâ Adúnerama ) bronze founder living in Archet, Breelander of mixed dúnedain descent. c. 3017
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caedmon
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby caedmon » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:42 pm

For those who want to know more about regarding Dunedain design, it's going to be halfway between Aidan Meehan and Zentangle.

About 25 years ago a guy named Aidan Meehan wrote "Celtic Design: Knotwork: The Secret Method of the Scribes" a book that concisely laid out the rules of celtic knotwork, and proposed simple methods to replicate even the most complex patterns.

Additionally I have, of late, been forced to participate in a weekly zentangle group. Which is another method of building up complex patterns from simple shapes.

Anyway, when I started looking at the Numenorean design motifs I started realizing that they use about 6 standard repeating patterns, which should be straight forward to decode and set out for use.

I'll probably also pull some stuff from the Fr. Christmas letters, as there are strong similarities between some of the borders and NPB's Goblin script. ( I'll note when I pull in non-Dunedain material. )
-Jack Horner

----------------------------
Impression: Boater Wesman ( Balku'npâ Adúnerama ) bronze founder living in Archet, Breelander of mixed dúnedain descent. c. 3017
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby Manveruon » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:01 pm

Is it weird that I see a lot of Numenorian design motifs in the Cheesecake Factory decor?

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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby Manveruon » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:06 pm

Also worth noting, the tableside lamps have a... certain look...

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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby Elleth » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:32 pm

I don't think it's odd: they're pulling from Art Deco and Art Nouveau sources, which were big in the Professor's youth and seem to have inspired some of his aesthetic.

Personally, I think Romanesque has a closer emotional resonance in than Egyptian/Mediterranean/Classical, at least for the WotR era.
I don't think the Dunedain of the late Third Age necessarily hold slavishly to the artistic forms of Numenor any more than the Carolingians were using Mycanean or Egyptian motifs.
Some things - acanthus leaves for instance - kept showing up, but somewhat more stylized / less "tropical" looking for lack of a better word.

Add in foreign influences over the intervening years: in the real world all manner of Germanic tribes, Celts, and so forth - and in the Angle influences from elves and men whose cultures never made it to Numenor.

Which isn't to say you wouldn't see a pattern from a Numenoran carpet on a Ranger's piece of gear: just that I'd not expect it to remain unchanged, even assuming a fairly conservative culture.
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby Elleth » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:39 pm

Also, for what it's worth, I like the 8-point decision. :)
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caedmon
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby caedmon » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:51 pm

Elleth wrote:I don't think the Dunedain of the late Third Age necessarily hold slavishly to the artistic forms of Numenor any more than...



I agree. However, I am going to start by slavishly copying the Master's work. After I figure it out, then I will work on variation.

-Jack


p.s. the evolution of acanthus leaves is the perfect simile.
-Jack Horner

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Impression: Boater Wesman ( Balku'npâ Adúnerama ) bronze founder living in Archet, Breelander of mixed dúnedain descent. c. 3017
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby Mirimaran » Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:22 am

Just my two cents concerning the star motifs, and it has been years since I researched it, but I was under the impression that the 5 pointed star was of the Royal House of Arnor. I did a flag some time ago based on this which I will have to see if I can find, or a pic thereof.

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Elleth
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby Elleth » Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:27 pm

I agree. However, I am going to start by slavishly copying the Master's work. After I figure it out, then I will work on variation.


I love this approach. :)
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caedmon
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby caedmon » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:55 pm

Not completely happy with it, but here's a rework of the site star with Numeonrean desing motifs, in this case, the lotus. The overall effect is supposed to approximate the fuller brooch. The original logo star is provided above for comparison.


dstar3.png
dstar3.png (123.35 KiB) Viewed 4996 times
-Jack Horner

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Impression: Boater Wesman ( Balku'npâ Adúnerama ) bronze founder living in Archet, Breelander of mixed dúnedain descent. c. 3017
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby Udwin » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:24 pm

Brilliant! (Not that there was anything wrong with the original, but) the use of an actual Numenorean pattern makes it LEGIT. :D Thumbs-up.
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Greg
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby Greg » Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:37 pm

Could you hypothetically take the bottom right 1/4 of it (split it down the middle and across the centerline) and make a bit of a sketch-y version (monochrome transparent) to be used as a top-left cornerpiece on the new homepage -in-the-making, along with some of the other drawings we're working on?

Looks great!
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caedmon
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby caedmon » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:15 am

OK, baby steps.

First the problem. We have maybe three sources: A 'Numenorean Carpet', some heraldric charges, and the hand drawn cover of ROTK (which is Gondorian).

Trying to piece them together to get third age Dunedain design is like trying to reconstruct 17th century German Jewish motifs from a Sumerian bas-relief, a couple clay tablets, and some 12th century Sufi calligraphy.

That said... We have elves.

Anyway I have broken the images I have into several categories (often repeated).

  • Borders
  • Circles
  • Linework/Spiralwork
  • Lozenges
  • Nautical themes
  • Plant themes
  • Representational



Next Step: decode Nautical designs

p.s. the board attachment quota has been reached, I'll have to upload the categories later.
Attachments
representational.png
representational.png (640.85 KiB) Viewed 4924 times
plant.png
plant.png (320.77 KiB) Viewed 4924 times
nautical.png
nautical.png (70.73 KiB) Viewed 4924 times
lozenge.png
lozenge.png (353.77 KiB) Viewed 4924 times
circle.png
circle.png (265.32 KiB) Viewed 4924 times
borders.png
borders.png (584.39 KiB) Viewed 4924 times
-Jack Horner

----------------------------
Impression: Boater Wesman ( Balku'npâ Adúnerama ) bronze founder living in Archet, Breelander of mixed dúnedain descent. c. 3017
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caedmon
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Postby caedmon » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:17 pm

Faversham Brooch


Image
-Jack Horner

----------------------------
Impression: Boater Wesman ( Balku'npâ Adúnerama ) bronze founder living in Archet, Breelander of mixed dúnedain descent. c. 3017

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