Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

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Elleth
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Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Elleth »

I'm rather unclear on who's still using Cirth runes at the end of the Third Age.

I've the vague sense that -
The dwarves evidently, given Thorin's map - I assume exclusively at least amongst themselves.
Men, hobbits, and elves as I understand it use tengwar for general writing tasks, and runes occasionally for symoblic ones.

Is that about right?
It's my memory Glamdring and Narsil both have runic inscriptions, but are exceedly old. If memory services, the Uruk in Saruman's service had runes on their shields. I don't recall any mention of architectural inscriptions at all amongst men.

Certainly Cirth are easier to carve than tengwar: but what's more likely for contemporary work of Gondor or men in Eriador? Are runes still in common use amongst regular folk?
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Elwindil »

the dwarves use a version of Cirth, but it's one that they've adapted from the original to suit their own needs, so it's not entirely the same as the original language, at least from what I've read. From everything I've found, it's still in use but only in a ceremonial capacity. Also, the runes on Glamdring and Orcrist aren't Cirth, but a language used specifically in Gondolin that has since been forgotten and fallen out of use.
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Udwin »

Short answer: it seems the Tengwar script would be most common for both Common Speech and Sindarin for everyday folks. Saruman's uruks DO have an 's' rune on their helmets, and we're told that 'Sauron does not use the elf-runes'--assuming he has made his own ugly alphabet for Black Speech use?(LRII:1).

I used my 'hybrid' system to label the map of upper Wilderland I'm working on now, since the Beorning persona is likely very nearly illiterate, but would be in much more contact with rune-using Dwarves than Elves or Numenorean-descended Men.

Long, interesting answer:
Vol 12 HOME, part two: chapter X Of Dwarves and Men wrote:“The Dwarves were not, however, skilled linguists - in most matters they were unadaptable - and spoke with a marked 'dwarvish' accent. Also they had never invented any form of alphabetic writing.(5) They quickly, however, recognized the usefulness of the Elvish systems, when they at last became sufficiently friendly with any of the Eldar to learn them. This occurred mainly in the close association of Eregion and Moria in the Second Age. Now in Eregion not only the Feanorian Script, which had long become a mode of writing generally used (with various adaptations) among all 'lettered' peoples in contact with the Numenorean settlements,(6) but also the ancient 'runic' alphabet of Daeron elaborated [> used] by the Sindar was known and used. This was, no doubt, due to the influence of Celebrimbor, a Sinda who claimed descent from Daeron.(7) Nonetheless even in Eregion the Runes were mainly a 'matter of lore' and were seldom used for informal matters. They, however, caught the fancy of the Dwarves; for while the Dwarves still lived in populous mansions of their own, such as Moria in particular, and went on journeys only to visit their own kin, they had little intercourse with other peoples except immediate neighbours, and needed writing very little; though they were fond of inscriptions, of all kinds, cut in stone. For such purposes the Runes were convenient, being originally devised for them.
The Longbeard Dwarves therefore adopted the Runes, and modified them for their own uses (especially the expression of Khuzdul); and they adhered to them even far into the Third Age, when they were forgotten by others except the loremasters of Elves and Men. Indeed it was generally supposed by the unlearned that they had been invented by the Dwarves, and they were widely known as 'dwarf-letters'.(8)
Now the Common Speech, when written at all, had from its beginning been expressed in the Feanorian Script.(9) Only occasionally and in inscriptions not written with pen or brush did some of the Elves of Sindarin descent use the Runes of Daeron, and their spelling was then dependent on the already established usages of the Feanorian Script. The Dwarves had originally learned the Common Speech by ear as best they could, and had no occasion to write it; but in the Third Age they had been obliged in the course of trade and other dealings with Men and Elves to learn to read the Common Speech as written, and many had found it convenient to learn to write it according to the then general customs of the West. But this they only did in dealings with other peoples. For their own purposes they (as has been said) preferred the Runes and adhered to them.

Note 8:
N.B. It is actually said by Elrond in The Hobbit that the Runes were invented by the Dwarves and written with silver pens. Elrond was half-elven and a master of lore and history. So either we must tolerate this discrepancy or modify the history of the Runes, making the actual Angerthas Moria largely an affair of Dwarvish invention.
In notes associated with this essay he is seen pondering the latter course, considering the possibility that it was in fact the Longbeard Dwarves who were the original begetters of the Runes; and that it was from them that Daeron derived the idea, but since the first Runes were not well organised (and differed from one mansion of the Dwarves to another) he ordered them in a logical system.
But of course in Appendix E (II) he had stated very explicitly the origin of the Runes: 'The Cirth were devised first in Beleriand by the Sindar'. It was Daeron of Doriath who developed the 'richest and most ordered form' of the Cirth, the Alphabet of Daeron, and its use in Eregion led to its adoption by the Dwarves of Moria, whence its name Angerthas Moria. Thus the inconsistency, if inconsistency there was, could scarcely be removed; but in fact there was none. It was the 'moon-runes' that Elrond declared (at the end of the chapter A Short Rest) to have been invented by the Dwarves and written by them with silver pens, not the Runes as an alphabetic form - as my father at length noted with relief. I mention all this as an illustration of his intense concern to avoid discrepancy and inconsistency, even though in this case his anxiety was unfounded. - For an earlier account of the origin of the Runes see VII.452-5.]
Elwindil wrote:Also, the runes on Glamdring and Orcrist aren't Cirth, but a language used specifically in Gondolin that has since been forgotten and fallen out of use.
Do you have a source for that?
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Elwindil »

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Glamdring

taken from the article: When he took the sword, Gandalf said he could not read the runes. Elrond did, however, as he was savant of all kinds of runes.

A fitting explanation would be the "Gondolinic Runes", devised by Tolkien in either 1924 or 1930. This set of Runes was first published in 1992.

In 1960, Tolkien began a complete rewrite of the Hobbit in which he added the fact that Glamdring was covered in dark blood when Gandalf found it, explaining why the runes were unreadable until cleaned by Elrond.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gondolinic_Runes

taken from second article: This system could have been an invention of Pengolodh or other loremasters, and was employed obviously in Gondolin (or in Nevrast, at earliest).

Glamdring and Orcrist, the famous swords, had probably inscriptions in that system, because Elrond (who knew of all types of runes) could read their inscriptions. Elrond was born in Arvernien, while Gandalf was unable to.

The system of Gondolin was perhaps dropped out of use after its fall, but used for a while in Arvernien. It is mentioned that there Pengolodh was fascinated by the Certhas Daeron brought by the survivors of Doriath (perhaps it seemed to him a more perfected system), and adopted it for his works. They seem to have been obsoleted and forgotten by the Third Age, and this is supported by the fact that only Elrond could read the swords' inscriptions.
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Taurinor »

Elwindil wrote:http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Glamdring

taken from the article: When he took the sword, Gandalf said he could not read the runes. Elrond did, however, as he was savant of all kinds of runes.

A fitting explanation would be the "Gondolinic Runes", devised by Tolkien in either 1924 or 1930. This set of Runes was first published in 1992.

In 1960, Tolkien began a complete rewrite of the Hobbit in which he added the fact that Glamdring was covered in dark blood when Gandalf found it, explaining why the runes were unreadable until cleaned by Elrond.
Seems like a reasonable interpretation, but I wouldn't take it for fact, especially since the Professor seemed to want to provide an explanation for why Gandalf couldn't read the runes in his rewrite.
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Elwindil »

but it would also make sense that Gandalf wouldn't know the Gondolinic rune system, since it fell out of use prior to his arrival on the shores of ME if memory serves. Gondolin fell during the First Age, and Gandalf didn't arrive in ME until the Third Age, quite a bit of time had passed allowing only those who were in ME at the time (Elrond and a few other elves, most certainly Celeborn and Cirdan the shipwright and Galadriel, and of course Glorfindel who arrived most likely some time during the Second Age.)
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Glorfindel Excerpt from article: In a hasty note about the Council of Elrond Tolkien suggested that Glorfindel could tell of his ancestry in Gondolin, but this idea was disbanded.

Glorfindel was originally planned to be part of the Fellowship of the Ring, in a way taking the place of Legolas. Tolkien proposed three dates as to his return to Middle-earth: T.A. 1000, with Gandalf, S.A. 1200 and the years following, or S.A. 1600. He dropped the first one after some thought, and though he declared the second possible, he favored the last as the most probable.
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Taurinor »

Again, sound logic, but unless Tolkien specified somewhere that the runes on the blades were Gondolinic, it's an interpretation. Obviously we're all about interpretation on this forum, and that looks to be a very reasonable and defensible one; it's just helpful to differentiate between things that are stated outright by Tolkien in his writings, and logical conclusions that are drawn from his writings, but not explicitly stated by the Professor.
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Elwindil »

you are quite correct, and if I was inferring that such was the case, that it came straight from the Professor, I apologize. I was only making observations based on my own reading and the slight knowledge I have of the way weapons were manufactured historically here in our world. speaking from a historical point, weapons that were engraved were done so in the language that was in use by the group doing the engraving, even the latin phrases found on weapons dating from the crusades are historically accurate as that was the language used primarily for religious purposes, and most knights of the time were either church funded or actual fighting orders of monks. While I haven't found any evidence of that being the case for Glamdring and Orcrist, there is evidence of the Gondolinic runes in the Professor's writings. Whether he later abandoned them in favor of something else being used I am uncertain.
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Will Whitfoot »

Speaking from the point of view of a coinmaker creating coinage from Middle-earth... Tengwar is by far the most elegant epigraphic system available to the people of that time/place. By that I mean that it is both replete and purely syllabic. The characters have no meaning except a spoken one. One can encode any spoken language into Tengwar characters with their associated tehta accents. By contrast the runes are somewhat crude with a more limited set of sound-values and only rudely encode a spoken language. They're fine if you already know what language the writer is using. They would have been used primarily by cultures who had low esteem for elvish ways. OR... for those who had limited artistic penchant... since Runes are made of straight lines and are easy to carve in a hurry. Tengwar is much more subtle and difficult in that respect. So the Men of Dale for instance in the days before the coming of Smaug, would have used Runes... but probably NOT the same as those used by the Dwarves of Erebor. But "higher" mannish cultures, such as Breeland or Gondor, would have been using Tengwar.
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Elleth »

I think you're right Will - I'm curious though why you refer to the Dale men as still using Runes? Not saying you're wrong - I just don't recall a reference either way. Given their sort of "Novgorod" positioning in Middle Earth I've been assuming they were a bit cosmopolitan as 3rd Age ME goes, but that may be PJ interfering w/ my memories.

(and I *haaaaaaated* his 17th c. Low Countries take on Laketown. )

All that said, there's an interesting line in Fellowship where Aragorn informs the hobbits that Rangers still use runes. I assume less as a matter of course and more as a means for leaving messages such as the one they find from Gandalf. Which certainly implies they've almost completely fallen out of use amongst the (non-Dunedain) men and hobbits of the west.
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Manveruon »

Elleth wrote: (and I *haaaaaaated* his 17th c. Low Countries take on Laketown. )
Hah! UUUUUUGH MEEE TOOOO.
Elleth wrote:All that said, there's an interesting line in Fellowship where Aragorn informs the hobbits that Rangers still use runes. I assume less as a matter of course and more as a means for leaving messages such as the one they find from Gandalf. Which certainly implies they've almost completely fallen out of use amongst the (non-Dunedain) men and hobbits of the west.
To me, this makes sense in that the Rangers may be working with limited resources while on-the-go, so runes are easier if they need to quickly carve them into wood or stone, etc.
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Re: Cirth vs. Tengwar in the Third Age?

Post by Eofor »

Sorry to raise this thread from the dead but I've been looking into dwarven runes lately.
Elleth wrote:I'm curious though why you refer to the Dale men as still using Runes?
Here is one at least, from the Fellowship as Gandalf reads from the book of Mazarbul, it also seems to suggest that the records of the Dwarves were recorded in up to three languages depending on who was doing the writing.
Gandalf lifted it carefully, but the leaves crackled and broke as he laid it on the slab.... Frodo and Gimli... could see, as he gingerly turned the leaves, that they were written by many different hands, in runes, both of Moria and of Dale, and here and there in Elvish script.

Elwindil wrote:Also, the runes on Glamdring and Orcrist aren't Cirth, but a language used specifically in Gondolin that has since been forgotten and fallen out of use.
That there is a secret language of Gondolin which is alluded to at least in the naming of Eärendil from the Fall of Gondolin
For in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son and he was called Eärendil, now there too there are many interpretations both among elves and men but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the earth
Taking that on board, when looking at the swords in The Hobbit Elrond says that the runes name the swords Orcrist (Sindarin) and Glamdring (Quenya) so it's by the runes that he is able to name them.
Now given that the names come from both Sindarin and Quenya this means that despite a potential secret language they continue at least to use the other elvish dialects.

A possible explanation for Gandalf's inability to read them may be drawn from the Doors of Durin. In the Fellowship we see Frodo unable to understand the inscription
'What does the writing say?' asked Frodo, who was trying to decipher the inscription above the arch. 'I thought I knew the elf-letters, but I cannot read these
So even though he can read Tengwar the writing of Eregion is beyond his ability to translate and Gandalf too, manages a small error in his own translation.

With 1400 years seperating these events and the fall of Eregion it seems reasonable that with a fourfold gap between the Fall of Gondolin and the finding of the swords in the troll hoard the runes may simply be in a version of Tengwar that Gandalf hasn't encountered before.

P.S - Thanks for the original thread, it answered my questions well :shock:
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