Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

For discussion of Dunedain culture, what it might have looked like and how it worked.

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Greg
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Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Greg »

Manveruon’s trinkets thread (and my subsequent response) got me thinking that it’d be good to start a similar thread to discuss cultural jargon and verbiage that would help solidify our character’s origins when conversing with others, be they in kit or civilians. Bear in mind, this only applies to first person interpretation.
In character, I shouldn't be saying "I'm a Ranger"...it's not a compliment. But saying "I am a descendant of Numenor tasked with patrolling the fallen north kingdom" isn't right either. In short, I'm working on ways to be seen for what I am even by folks who don't have a clue what a Numenorean carpet looks like, as well as character-appropriate ways to field questions.
To this effect, simple character-appropriate ways to respond to “Who/what are you?” questions might be as simple as “I’m just passing through” or “Can you direct me to the inn?”, but I find it important to bear in mind that a Ranger is, by definition, secretive though not suspicious. I think it important that one be conversational without being proud. The tendency is to tell who and what you are right out of the gate, but that is counter-intuitive to the goal of putting a King back on the throne.

Other things to note: Very proper speech. As a basic rule, I’m trying to avoid contractions altogether, as word separation automatically lends a higher air to a sentence. Also, avoiding accents entirely. Faire-goers and reenactors alike often add an accent to give their persona credibility, but I believe such sounds (and slurs such as ‘aye’) do the character disservice. I’m also noticing phrases in the text such as ‘brought to ruin’ completely replacing the modern ‘messed up’.

Other ideas? Phrases that jump out at you?
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Straelbora »

I would assume that the Dunedain would speak the Common Tongue with a smattering of Elvish.
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Elleth »

Certainly "in world" I think you're right Straelbora - though I doubt they'd speak Sindarin much in front of other peoples unless they were speaking directly with elves.

I think Greg's asking more about reenactment portrayals - necessarily in English (at least amongst most of the current membership. :) )
I think rather than emulating certain phrases, it's better to aim for a broad emotional feel to one's language.

I believe the more precise diction Greg mentions is a very good way of achieving that - another marker I seem to recall in both the Dunedain and the Rohirrim is a greater formality of speech than Hobbits or men of Bree. Certainly it's there in the movies - "to Rivendell, Master Gamgee."

Certainly borrowing ren-fair forsoothy speech is a mistake - but an erect bearing and formal diction can carry a Dunedain impression a long way.
... as can simple laconic silence.
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Manveruon »

Love this concept!

I understand your wanting to distance yourself from the oft-corny "Ye Olde Ren Faire Accent," but for me, a solid, convincing accent (emphasis strongly on those adjectives) can really bring an impression to life, so if I try to start doing as you're describing I might still try giving it just a touch of... well... something. I dont quite know WHAT accent fits best, but just a hint of something "exotoc" sounding seems in keeping to my mind. Perhaps something like a subtle York or generic "Northern English" accent could work - or maybe something closer to Scandinavian...? Believe it or not, in the New Line films they actually paid really close attention to the various accents used by different cultures, and I found that fascinating. The hobbits were clearly English, with those of a higher class sounding a bit more refined than the more pastoral sound of characters like Sam, for instance (of course, Billy Boyd can't be anything but Scottish, so that was kind of jarring, but still). Then the Rohirrim had slight Irish notes, etc. Of course, Viggo's own accent came out... well... weird. Weird, and wildly inconsistent. But still, I give him kudos for trying. So anyway, I wouldn't count accent out altogether, but I do understand why you would want to avoid it.

Either way though, I enjoy this idea, and I'm going to have to give it a shot. I particularly like the concept of speaking more "properly," and using language closer to how Tolkien wrote. It's difficult for us modern Americans, but if done well it can really sound cool.
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Greg »

I particularly like the concept of speaking more "properly," and using language closer to how Tolkien wrote. It's difficult for us modern Americans, but if done well it can really sound cool.
. ...and because of the difficulty, I believe it would go a long way towards distancing the language from that of the ‘common folk’ surrounding. In itself, it might serve the purpose of an accent.
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Peter Remling »

Rangers would probably be taciturn stemming from the distrust of the common man. If asked who I am," I am a traveler". If pressed maybe " traveling the wilds".

This would be a self fulfilling act. The Ranger responds to the towns folk in short curt answers. The towns folk realize who/what he is and because he is not more forthcoming distrust him- self fulfilling.

Distrusting may not be the correct word but they have little in common with each other. The best informed Rangers would be those who can overcome the lack of commonality and ingratiate themselves with locals, gain a measure of trust and information.

Speaking a "higher " form of the language would also set Rangers apart.
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Straelbora »

Peter Remling wrote:Rangers would probably be taciturn stemming from the distrust of the common man. If asked who I am," I am a traveler". If pressed maybe " traveling the wilds".

This would be a self fulfilling act. The Ranger responds to the towns folk in short curt answers. The towns folk realize who/what he is and because he is not more forthcoming distrust him- self fulfilling.

Distrusting may not be the correct word but they have little in common with each other. The best informed Rangers would be those who can overcome the lack of commonality and ingratiate themselves with locals, gain a measure of trust and information.

Speaking a "higher " form of the language would also set Rangers apart.
Among African-Americans, this is often referred to as 'code switching,' that is, when to use standard "white" English and when to use what may have been the African-American dialect spoken growing up.

As someone who speaks several langagues, at least two on a daily basis (I'm an immigration lawyer), I find myself instantly gauging where to 'land' - that is, am I speaking with a Mexican immigrant with a fifth grade education, or a Venezuelan engineer fleeing his country's turmoil. I'm chatty and a story teller by nature, and have found myself entering bars, pubs, etc. in other countries and catching a stink eye because of my race, or apparent foreignness, my wealth, or just because I'm not a recognized local. I often end those evenings being bought beers and with drunken hugs and proclamations of brotherhood and friendship. Were I actually a Dunedain, I would have to have an external persona for interacting with non-Dunedain; both the silent and forgotten observer in the corner and the welcome itinerant tradesman would provide differnt levels in intel. It's not that I can't (and haven't) spent a week alone hiking and camping in the woods; it's that my nature is to engage people.
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Iodo »

Great ideas so far :P
I can't ever quite decide what to do about ascents and manner of speech, PJ cast the dwarves, especially ones from the iron hills, as scottish which is always tempting (my brother does the best sottish ascent and I'm starting to pick it up :lol: ) but since there's absolutely nothing about that in the book's I sort of decided not to. In the books the dwarves were doscribed as rude and with poor table manner, does this mean they have poor speech and grammar, or just that from a civilised hobbit's point of veiw they are terrible (meaning perhaps not that bad)?
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Taurinor »

I don't know that all Rangers would necessarily be the silent observer sort all the time, although Aragorn certainly seems to have been.
Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter 9: At the Sign of the Prancing Pony wrote:'Him?' said the landlord in an answering whisper, cocking an eye without turning his head. 'I don't rightly know. He is one of the wandering folk -Rangers we call them. He seldom talks: not but what he can tell a rare tale when he has the mind. He disappears for a month, or a year, and then he pops up again. He was in and out pretty often last spring; but I haven't seen him about lately. What his right name is I've never heard: but he's known round here as Strider. Goes about at a great pace on his long shanks; though he don't tell nobody what cause he has to hurry. But there's no accounting for East and West, as we say in Bree, meaning the Rangers and the Shire-folk, begging your pardon. Funny you should ask about him.'
It seems like some of the Rangers at least spoke with Bree-folk occasionally, though.
Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter 9: At the Sign of the Prancing Pony wrote:When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them.
I think the Rangers would probably have to be a little guarded with what they told Bree-folk, what with the "If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so" notion Aragorn speaks about at Elrond's council, but I don't know that the silent observer method is the only way they might have done that. Like Pete said, the lack of commonality would make for a certain amount of separation (and our own history is full of examples of agrarian societies "othering", if not outright persecuting nomadic peoples), but everyone appreciates a good storyteller!

As an aside, the more I look and think, it really seems like all the Free Peoples are a bit insular. They are allies against the Enemy, of course, but "friendly" doesn't seem like the right word. Just makes the Fellowship that much more remarkable, I suppose!

Back to the topic at hand though, I also agree with Greg's ideas about proper diction and avoiding contractions. The Bree-folk seem to use some contractions and double negatives and the like, so it might help to avoid those. Some examples from the text (mostly from Butterbur, who seems to be one of the more educated Breelanders):

"What may you be wanting?"
"I haven't got six legs, nor six eyes neither!"
"But if you're going to do any more tumbling, or conjuring, or whatever it was, you'd best warn folk beforehand - and warn me. We're a bit suspicious round here of anything out of the way -uncanny, if you understand me; and we don't take to it all of a sudden."
"Barley, he says, I'm off in the morning."
"Oh have they? I’ll learn them"
"But I’m right glad to see you, and none more than Gandalf."
"But if you could spare me half an hour before you go to your beds, I would dearly like to have some talk with you, quiet-like by ourselves."

Sam seems to have similar speech patterns, but Frodo is more formal. It seems to me like the Professor was trying to give them more of a country way of speaking, so avoiding that in a Dunadain portrayal would help highlight the difference between the groups.
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Straelbora »

Iodo wrote:Great ideas so far :P
I can't ever quite decide what to do about ascents and manner of speech, PJ cast the dwarves, especially ones from the iron hills, as scottish which is always tempting (my brother does the best sottish ascent and I'm starting to pick it up :lol: ) but since there's absolutely nothing about that in the book's I sort of decided not to. In the books the dwarves were doscribed as rude and with poor table manner, does this mean they have poor speech and grammar, or just that from a civilised hobbit's point of veiw they are terrible (meaning perhaps not that bad)?
Considering that the Dwarves were taken from Norse/Germanic myth, live primarily in the North, etc. , I believe a Scandinavian accent would be more appropriate. However, before you know it, you're sounding like the Swedish Chef from the Muppets.

I think in the Hobbit films, Richard Armitage was toying with a more Slavic/Eastern European accent. When he first mentions Gandalf upon entering Bilbo's house, there's a decided Slavic lilt. However, that can quickly devolve into a Bela Lugois Dracula accent in no time.
Vápnum sínum skala maðr velli á
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Elleth »

If one is to do accents, I like Eastern Europe or Scandi for Dwarves.
I'm imagining the "Vikings" accent near-universally in deep baritones and it's giving me shivers. :mrgreen:

Personally, I'm terrible with accents so I'll have to just stick with diction. :)
As an aside, the more I look and think, it really seems like all the Free Peoples are a bit insular. They are allies against the Enemy, of course, but "friendly" doesn't seem like the right word. Just makes the Fellowship that much more remarkable, I suppose!
Absolutely agreed. It's an interesting situation.. even the Breelanders and Shirefolk who we see as gregarious from native's POV seem suspicious of outsiders. OTOH, what can you expect when the dark powers have been known to wear fair masks? Being too trusting of strangers can get you killed.
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk’

Post by Iodo »

Straelbora wrote: Considering that the Dwarves were taken from Norse/Germanic myth, live primarily in the North, etc. , I believe a Scandinavian accent would be more appropriate. However, before you know it, you're sounding like the Swedish Chef from the Muppets.

I think in the Hobbit films, Richard Armitage was toying with a more Slavic/Eastern European accent. When he first mentions Gandalf upon entering Bilbo's house, there's a decided Slavic lilt. However, that can quickly devolve into a Bela Lugois Dracula accent in no time.
Hmmmmm... Maybe I should stick to no accent for now, a little scottish is tempting but not book accurate :mrgreen: As for grammar and such, I need to do a lot more book research.
(Sorry about spelling accent wrong in my previous post, typing on a tablet :P )
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk

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As to speaking and secrecy I would follow the principles of being interrogated. “Stick to the truth as much as possible, altering small details as necessary”. There’s no need for me to sweep into Bree cloaked and hooded and rush to the darkest corner of the inn. With that type of action I might as well paint a target on my back.(or in this case a star). One thing I think sometimes forgotten is that the Dunedain are being sought to some degree by Sauron.

I think a rangers speech would be formal yet distant. For myself I would hide my purpose behind my occupation, that of a tracker or scout. So when asked by a local, “Whats your name and purpose friend?” I would merely reply something like “My name is Ursus, a guide employed to advise and escort “so and sos” party to (insert village or other location) near the North Downs.” Unspoken “ And to gather such news and information valuable to my kin as I may along the way”. Which is more or less a discreet way of saying what Greg stated in the first post. Indeed any ranger could use an occupation as a cover in the same way. “I’m a cobbler come to sell my wares at the market” or “I’m a smith looking for work” just as well as the good ol’ “Just passing through” excuse.

I think even the name of Ursus would merely be a name used in my travels more so than a more culturally appropriate Dunedain/Numenorean name, much as Aragorn does. Let’s not assume that everyone in Middle Earth is poorly read. All it takes is someone with a big mouth and a bit of history education to take note of a tall, dark stranger with a Numenorean name and certain sort of “bearing” (meaning well armed,equipped, and woods wise)to cause a lot of trouble.

Whereas with an occupational cover I’m speaking the truth essentially yet still preforming my tasks as well. Sometimes the best place to hide something is in plain sight. And being someone who more or less looks and is sized like a Dunedain I can tell you if a large armed man comes in to a village acting all guarded and grim it’s going to draw far more questions than being friendly yet slightly aloof.
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Re: Dunedain Cultural Responses and ‘Talk

Post by Taurinor »

Ursus wrote:I think even the name of Ursus would merely be a name used in my travels more so than a more culturally appropriate Dunedain/Numenorean name, much as Aragorn does.
I read Aragorn's use of the name "Strider" a little bit differently. It didn't so much appear to be a name that he chose to use while interacting with Bree-folk as much as a (somewhat insulting) label the Bree-folk referred to him by, along with "Longshanks". I don't know if he just never gave them his name, so they named him, or if they decided to disregard any name he gave them as a way to further "other" the Rangers, or if it was another situation entirely, but although he uses the name Strider in Bree, possibly for the reasons you suggest, he clearly sees it as an insult -
Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter 2: The Council of Elrond wrote:Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. "Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly.
Bilbo is surprised when Frodo calls him Strider, as well, as it's not one of Aragorn's names that he's heard before.
Ursus wrote:Let’s not assume that everyone in Middle Earth is poorly read. All it takes is someone with a big mouth and a bit of history education to take note of a tall, dark stranger with a Numenorean name and certain sort of “bearing” (meaning well armed,equipped, and woods wise)to cause a lot of trouble.
I think it may be more safe to assume that than you might think - the Professor seems to suggest that some Hobbits and most Bree-folk (who named the Rangers and seem to have the most interaction with them, aside from the elves who know who and what they are) are illiterate.
Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Chapter 3: Of the Ordering of the Shire wrote:By no means all Hobbits were lettered, but those who were wrote constantly to all their friends (and a selection of their relations) who lived further off than an afternoon's walk.
Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter 9: At the Sign of the Prancing Pony wrote:The Bree-hobbits were, in fact, friendly and inquisitive, and Frodo soon found that some explanation of what he was doing would have to be given. He gave out that he was interested in history and geography (at which there was much wagging of heads, although neither of these words were much used in the Bree-dialect). He said he was thinking of writing a book (at which there was silent astonishment), and that he and his friends wanted to collect information about hobbits living outside the Shire, especially in the eastern lands.
Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter 10: Strider wrote:'It's addressed plain enough,' said Mr. Butterbur, producing a letter from his pocket, and reading out the address slowly and proudly (he valued his reputation as a lettered man)
There's oral history, of course, but in our own world oral histories usually only go back five to eight centuries (although they can go back much longer, in certain circumstances), but I don't know that the Breeland oral tradition includes much about the Numenoreans -
Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter 9: At the Sign of the Prancing Pony wrote:Few had survived the turmoils of the Elder Days; but when the Kings returned again over the Great Sea they had found the Bree-men still there, and they were still there now, when the memory of the old Kings had faded into the grass.
In fact, it seems like the Rangers might be (most likely very selectively) telling the Bree-folk parts of their own oral history, what with the "strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to" they tell.

Travelers pass through Bree "(mostly dwarves)", so it's possible someone more aware of history might travel through, but it seems relatively unlikely that someone in Bree would hear a Sindarin name and connect that to Arnor, especially since Bree-folk "were more friendly and familiar with Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, and other inhabitants of the world about them than was (or is) usual with Big People" (emphasis mine). It seems like they would more likely connect that to the Elves. In fact, they seem to be so generally unaware of history and geography that Aragorn is unsure if Butterbur will have even heard of Mordor. He has, but it's not assumed as a given.

So, a summary of that meandering post would probably be that Rangers might use different names around Bree, and it's hard to say one way or another because we only have the one (extraordinary) example of Aragorn, but I'm not sure that they necessarily would or would necessarily need to. Breelanders are kind of clueless (or "simple", as Aragorn put it).
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Re: literacy in Middle-earth

Post by Udwin »

Excellent post, Taurinor!
(I don't have much to add, as my personas are quite unrelated to the present discussion. Although as I said off-forum when this thread came up, I'm well overdue for a readthrough, and this would be a great lens to view things through this time around.)
As far as illiteracy, or technically aliteracy, is concerned, I think you're correct that the vast majority of Middle-earth's Mannish denizens cannot read. Sam knows his letters only thanks to his family's close friendship with the Bagginses (Bilbo taught him), Butterburr is set apart from the other Breelanders by his ability, we know the Rohirrim write no books, and I would imagine the Beornings don't either (not sure about the Northmen of Dale, with their possible paper-making and closer association with Dwarves). I imagine the Lossoth don't read, and the surviving Druedain tribes (at least four groups) are 'barbarous' and oral history-only. I really have to wonder if any Gondorians outside Minas Tirith or Dol Amroth can read, for that matter.
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