Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

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Peter Remling
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Peter Remling » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:53 am

As long as you're going with Cold Steel anyway, you might look into this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Cold-Steel-Perfect- ... ble_Knives

It's a large Bowie style thrower. I have one of these and aside from a good heavy thrower it also makes a good offhand fighter.

The auction indicated is just to show you a pic. If you shop around you should be able to pick it up for less.
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Willrett » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:11 am

I like that. These are what I currently have, I have both.

http://www.ltspecpro.com/saxmachetes.html
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Ernildir » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:28 pm

Eric C has kindly offered to help me with this, and we are currently trying to figure out what the dimensions of the knives should be. Y'all seem to have a much better understanding of the dimensions needed to fulfill the purposes of the weapons than I, so what do you think? From what you've already said, it seems that these knives are probably going to need to be quite a bit longer than the average knives, correct?

Another question -- do any of you remember what hand the RA Rangers throw from, or does it vary? It seems that with the saxe in the main-hand, they'd need to use the throwing knife from the left. Or do they usually only throw when the saxe is not being wielded? Or does Flanagan not make it clear to us? ;)

Thanks.
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Greg
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Greg » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:00 pm

Throwing is most practical and effective from the dominant hand. Accuracy and power are both easily controlled from there, whereas they are typically not from the offhand. In addition, throwing with the dominant hand would make throwing while holding a bow possible, an idea something Flanagan’s rangers would be most thoroughly disposed towards. All that talk about a strung bow being a weapon, an unstrung bow being dead weight to carry; I think they’d be pretty keen on being able to throw while holding their bow. Try these dimensions on for size (wait for drawing; it’s coming shortly.)
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Greg » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:40 pm

The following poorly done drawing in MS paint is intended to VERY LOOSELY reflect the design I daresay that should be strived towards to achieve the following:

a) To achieve Flanagan’s vision of the double knives in both a throwing and a Close Quarters Combat sense.
b) To achieve a realistic and practical pair of knives that can be used in tandem similarly to the way intended in the books.

This broken back seax is intended to be rather thick at the back. Weight is important with a blade like this; not necessarily for throwing purposes (though weight is certainly important for penetration purposes in that discipline) but also for the sake of the desired ability to absorb a blow from a sword with the weapon. Lighter weight blades tend to transfer large amounts of the shock of a blow to your hand, whereas additional mass in the blade takes more of the stress off of the wielder.

The throwing knife is altogether terribly drawn. However, I drew it at work with approximately 30 seconds to work within, so my apologies. At any rate, the intent was to show a Tolkienesque leaf-blade design. However, the point should probably be a bit wider than typically seen with this design to add weight to the front and drive it home when thrown.

The dimensions I would suggest are as follows:
The straight, longest, sharpened edge of the broken back seax should be approximately 10-12”. The handle should be beefy, much like a standard Kukri handle. I wouldn’t recommend it being curved, but flaring the bottom end wouldn’t be a bad idea. The backside of the blade should be solidly thick to add weight and a solid blunt edge to parry and strike with as well.

The throwing knife should be a total of 10-12” long, INCLUDING the handle. Long enough to be a substantial thrower, and long enough to have 7-8” worth of blade to block with when crossed alongside the back of the seax, allowing for a 4-5” long handle, which would be comfortable enough for most people, though beefy hands might require more.

Image

Again, apologies for the terrible MS Paint drawing. I hold myself to higher standards than that.
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby mcapanelli » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:13 pm

While I've not read the series, I do have some thoughts as far as the knives are concerned. If your going to use the larger knife as your primary close quarters weapon, it needs to be able to take on a sword, so in my opinion the bade should be at least 18" or better, and it needs some sort of short hand guard. The guard is really more about stopping your hand from sliding down the blade then it is for protection from another blade. It should be single edge, yet have a sword like temper. Try and think of a grosse Messer, which in effect is just means large knife. Or better yet, a langen messer, or long knife. If it's too short (Under 18") you'll have trouble holding off anything above a really short arming sword, and if it's too long (Above 24") you are better served by just getting a short sword. The trick here is to make something with a temper somewhere between a knife and a sword. Temper is everything here because no matter what you see in movies you WILL make blade contact on the flat, and receive blows on your flat as well, even if they'll be glancing blows. The energy of the strike has to go somewhere, and that place will be the spine of your knife.

As for the shorter knife, I'd think you'd be better served by it being a complimentary weapon to your longer knife, or just making it a thrown weapon and forget about it's back up utility. What I'd think would be a great combo would be a long knife/hand axe combination, just like a boarding party on a ship. A boarding axe knife combo is just killer for close quarters. Plus there's plenty of 18th century sources on axe/hawk fighting so you'd be up and chopping away in no time.
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Ernildir » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:42 am

Thank you very much for the suggestions, friends. They shall be considered.
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Peter Remling » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:26 am

The topic was reminisant of something I'd read before but couldn't place it till a short while ago.

In Brian Daley's Coramonde series (The Doomfarers' of and the Starfollowers' of) one of the character's used similar knives to those mentioned above. The character wore two sets of knives about her hips, the sheathes had tie downs. Each sheath carried a large throwing knife vertically and a fighting knife with the blade canted forward and the sheath slightly angled so she would have either type of knife readily available to either hand.

I'll see if I can draw up my interpetation and post it here.
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Eric C » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:41 am

Okay guys, I'm keeping an eye on this thread too for research purposes. Some good suggestions here. Up to this point all of my blades have been made from 3/16" or less sawblade steel. But I have been thinking about some projects that I have on tap- both orders and personal ideas that I will offer for sale- and they will need some thicker steel, say 1/4." I'm thinking 1095, or 5160 for this project and others that I made mention of.

Anyway, once Ernildhir and I work out some details and I get the steel ordered, I'll be ready to start. This may be a challenge. Good, I like challenges. :twisted:

Anyway, once we come to a conclusion as to how the respective knives should look, I'll be ready to go.
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Peter Remling
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Peter Remling » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:57 pm

This is a quick idea of the knife rig I mentioned above. You can get an idea of the knife shape through the scabbard.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn46 ... eath-1.jpg

Very quick drawing but you should get the idea. The thrower is about 10 1/2" and the fighter about 14" overall with a blade apprxly 9" . The top third of the blade is a sharpened false edge while the remaining is unsharpeded. The last 1" of the blade by the guard is not sharpened to allow one to wrap the finger over the guard. The thrower is made from 1/4" stock which allows for a real lot of abuse. The fighter I'd have made with 3/16" stock to keep the weight down and speed up.

The canting of the blade allows for the wrist's not holding at the horizontal, When a person is holding a blade the natural wrist movement forces the blade to be held at an angle with the point upwards (in the normal grip). A canted blade accounts for this issue and drops the point more directly on target for a stab.

This is not a critique on knife fighting (I personally prefer the normally trained stance with the blade angled slightly up), it is just to note why a canted blade.
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby KerryTracker » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:15 pm

I have to second the opinion on the Ranger Apprentice series. It really brings out the inner kid in me.

Since the books are always late to be published here in Ireland I have taken to having them shipped straight from Australia. The price of shipping costs more than the book but it is well worth it. I would suggest Abby books.http://www.abbeys.com.au/shop/productSearch.do?authorName=&title=&isbn=ranger+apprentice&all=ranger+apprentice&keywords=&sort=&txtQuery=ranger+apprentice

As for the throwing knives.... We were taught in the army that you never throw your weapon. Sure you can spend a lot of time practising to become good at it but it takes a tremendous amount of time to become proficient. That time can be spent on archery, tactical movement or edged weapons. Why spend most of your time throwing a knife?

Also, if you have two knives side by side in a scabbard and you draw then at the same time, you will cut one of your hands off.


I love the series and all of Tolkein but really, it is a story and not focused on feasibility or practical combat.
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Eledhwen » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:32 pm

I have one of those Windlass seaxes...I've been meaning to remove the grip and furniture and redo them into something reasonable. The blade isn't really all that bad. Add a throwing knife with similar furnishing and there's the matched pair..although throwing weapons are illegal here.

I have my tomahawk to go with it...which I prefer to knives, but they don't use those in the RA series, which I dearly love.

I just finished Book 9.

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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Willrett » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:00 pm

I just found this it may be helpful.

http://www.kultofathena.com/images%5CKRSED_1_l.jpg
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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Eledhwen » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:02 am

I see the image, but where on the site is that?

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Re: Ranger's Apprentice Style Saxe Knife and Throwing Knife

Postby Faolan » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:09 am

Looks like it might be these items;

http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=KRSED
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