Dunedain Star Brooch...

[Chris Russo]

I'm going to apply myself fully to the point-number question.

Our question, of course, is which star convention the Star of the Dunedain followed--did it symbolize the star Elendil wore on his brow? Did it symbolize Arnor? Ardethain? The line of kings, as the seven stars did? or something else? Does it go with the seven stars, or does it go with the star of Elendil?

We have a lot of stars to keep track of, so let me color-code for sanity's sake. We have
*Our star, the brooch that the Dunedain wear
*The seven stars, the stars that appear over the white tree and crown (symbolizing the palantiri as originally set up throughout Gondor and Arnor?)
*The star of Elendil, which the kings of Arnor wore on their forehead
*The star of Feanor (not important to us now)
*The emblems of the House of During (also not important to us now)


I'm kind of thinking out loud, now, so bear with me for a bit:
--The seven stars over the tree of Gondor were either five-rayed or six-rayed, depending on whether we go by the illustration or the index.
--The seven stars over the tree of Gondor were described as "many rayed" in the book, just as the Star of the Dunedain was, so they may look the same.
--All together, the seven stars, white tree, and crown was the symbol of Elendil and his heirs. It's important to note that Arvedui Last-King's claim to the throne of Gondor because he was Heir of Isildur was rejected. Aragorn did not claim Gondor as Heir of Isildur the King of Arnor, but as heir of Elendil the High King over Arnor AND Gondor.
--The "star of Elendil" was the symbol of the royal line of Arnor, along with the scepter. But this "star" was a diamond worn on the forehead, not a silver brooch. Still, the brooch could symbolize the royal closest-thing-to-a-crown-the-Arnorian-kings-wore.
--It's worth noting that the index mentions both the symbol of Elendil's heirs (the seven stars) and the symbol of the North Kingdom (the Endilimir) had the same number of points. So as long as the Dunedain brooch symbolized one of these, it wouldn't matter, it would look the same either way.
--Robert Foster's "History of Middle Earth" claims the Dunedain brooch had six points. He cites no reference for this claim, and he's been wrong before, but there it is.
--HOLD THE PHONE. Ernildhir, what edition of ROTK are you looking at? I looked at my copy's Index, and I get the following:

"Star, as emblem: (1) Star of the House of Feanor, 297; (2) Star of Elendil, 830; the Elendilmir, 1018; as emblem of the North Kingdom, 843, 946; (3) Seven stars (above a crown and anvil), emblems of Durin, 296; (4) Seven stars of Elendil and his captains, 269, 583, 736, 830, 932. (1) and (3) had eight rays, (2) and (1) had five. (1) was of silver (2) of diamond and represented the Star of Elendil (1011); (3) represented the Plough; (4) originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir (583); in Gondor the seven stars were set about a white-flowered tree, over which the Kings set a winged crown."

Of course mine seems to have a typo, as (1), Feanor's star, cannot have both eight and five rays. But even more startling, it claims that the Star of Elendil and the Seven Stars of Gondor had FIVE rays each, not SIX as in Ernildhir's edition! (My edition is, if you're wondering, Houghton Mifflin of Boston, and looks like a fairly recent printing, 1995 at the oldest. Could this be a revision by Christopher Tolkien?)

I checked my Kindle edition, but it has a completely different Index, one which doesn't mention anything other than page numbers. Everyone else, check your books, let me know what it says! Go to the last Index and look up "Star, as emblem."


In conclusion:
*The brooch probably represented either the North Kingdom, or marked its bearer as a follower of their Chieftain, an heir of Elendil.
*Therefore, however many rays the Elendilimir had (when stylized, as of course the diamond itself had no rays), or however many rays the Seven Stars of Elendil had, is probably the same number of rays that our brooch should have.
*Tolkien drew the Seven Stars as having five rays. His Index to LOTR described the Elendilimir and the Seven Stars as both having either five rays or six rays, depending on edition, apparently.
*Therefore, the evidence suggests that our brooch should either have five or six rays. Right now five looks more likely than six, at least to me, until I find some new evidence.


This isn't the conclusion I'd hoped for--aesthetically I prefer the eight-rayed stars, or even the six-rayed stars. If we do go with a five-rayed star, I suggest we gussy it up a little, as a five-pointed metal star would make me think "Sheriff." Don't want to be mistaken for a self-important hobbit, now, do we? I rather like what Faolan was doing in his sketch, with the little rays in between the five big rays.

[Chris Russo]

I'm starting to wonder if the difference in edition between the "five-rayed star" and "six-rayed star" is an American vs. British discrepancy. Maybe it's like the name of the wolf in Chronicles of Narnia: if you grew up with the American edition you know it as Fenris Ulf, if you grew up with the British edition you know it as Maugrim. And what's the first book in the Harry Potter series?

Anyway, if we can't resolve this through the texts, I'd lean toward a six-pointer. Pauline Baynes agreed, apparantly, in her illustration of Aragorn's flag: http://www.tolkienbooks.net/html/1st-deluxe-lr.html

[Faolan]

There is also an off-hand reference to support a six-rayed version in "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" in letter #211 written to Rhona Beare he compares Numenorean theology as "Hebraic". The full quote;

"The Numenoreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' - the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and tombs. (But not of course in 'theology': in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan - but this would take too long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no overt 'religion',* or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in the Lord of the Rings.)"

Faolan

[Jon]

I'm gonna put my money on the six-rayed star. I put more trust in the literature than the drawings personally. Don't quite know why, but I also think that the six-rayed star is more... authentic.
I have the same edition as Pete.

[Eledhwen]

I have said before I like the six pointed star, that has not changed. But I am quite happy to go with the majority of my fellow Rangers on this point.

Eledhwen

[Peter Remling]

Maybe the time to run a poll for the best liked design !

How about a two week period for folkes to post their design here, then we'll do a poll. Winning design is the one we try to have done.

If anyone who has already posted a design wants it to be entered just copy and post it after this post.

Any and all designs regardless of number of rays will be entered.

What does everyone think ?

[Chris Russo]

Pete, I was thinking along the same lines. Excellent idea.

Well, the first version I'd like to put forward is actually the shield design you did for our Christian Fletcher Dawg Days photo contest all those years ago. It was a nice, clean, six-rayed design.

Pete's shield design:



Simple, clean, easily recognizable, but can't be confused for a Star of David.

[Chris Russo]

There is also an off-hand reference to support a six-rayed version in "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" in letter #211 written to Rhona Beare he compares Numenorean theology as "Hebraic". The full quote;

"The Numenoreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' - the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and tombs. (But not of course in 'theology': in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan - but this would take too long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no overt 'religion',* or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in the Lord of the Rings.)"

Faolan

That's a good point, Faolan. I should point out, also, that six is the symbolic number of humanity in Christian literature, and that Tolkien, as a good Catholic, would have known this. Is it interesting that the two star emblems that have to do with Men may be six pointed, while the two stars that have to do with Dwarves or Elves are not?

[Ernildir]

Thank you so much for all the time you put into that investigation, Pete! That is surprising that our indexes would differ. I will check to see what my personal edition of The Lord of the Rings is, which claimed six rays, and I will also look at a couple other editions that are lying around the house to see what they say and let y'all know once I have.

Maybe the time to run a poll for the best liked design !

How about a two week period for folkes to post their design here, then we'll do a poll. Winning design is the one we try to have done.

If anyone who has already posted a design wants it to be entered just copy and post it after this post.

Any and all designs regardless of number of rays will be entered.

What does everyone think ?

Sounds like a great course of action!

[Peter Remling]

Thank you so much for all the time you put into that investigation, Pete! That is surprising that our indexes would differ. I will check to see what my personal edition of The Lord of the Rings is, which claimed six rays, and I will also look at a couple other editions that are lying around the house to see what they say and let y'all know once I have.

I believe you're mistaking Chris' work for mine. Chris is my go-to guy for scholarly info on Tolkien. I'm a Tolkien hobbiest, he's a researcher, a trekker and a great guy.

Just a side note, Today was one of the great forum days. We had several scholarly discussions, a new project sword revealed and four new members. It's days like this that make all the quiet days well worth while.

Here's to many more todays !!

[Kiriana]

I agree about starting a poll!! I will be fine with what everyone decides.

[Willrett]

I think if we need to add to the star it should be a leaf (oak or maple, maybe) either on top of the star or under it. Think Rangers apprentice for the leaf idea. I'm not saying it is needed but may help set us apart alittle.

I like the 6 point but a vote will be helpful so someone set it up.

[Peter Remling]

Will, Draw it up and post it !

[Mirimaran]

Pete, I was thinking along the same lines. Excellent idea.

Well, the first version I'd like to put forward is actually the shield design you did for our Christian Fletcher Dawg Days photo contest all those years ago. It was a nice, clean, six-rayed design.

Pete's shield design:



Simple, clean, easily recognizable, but can't be confused for a Star of David.

great minds think alike, my first shield from around 2006.

I'm for a poll and a 6 pointed star!

Ken

[Ernildir]

Thank you so much for all the time you put into that investigation, Pete! That is surprising that our indexes would differ. I will check to see what my personal edition of The Lord of the Rings is, which claimed six rays, and I will also look at a couple other editions that are lying around the house to see what they say and let y'all know once I have.

I believe you're mistaking Chris' work for mine. Chris is my go-to guy for scholarly info on Tolkien. I'm a Tolkien hobbiest, he's a researcher, a trekker and a great guy.

Just a side note, Today was one of the great forum days. We had several scholarly discussions, a new project sword revealed and four new members. It's days like this that make all the quiet days well worth while.

Here's to many more todays !!

Whoops... *embarrassed* Sorry, Chris! I knew it was you when I began reading your post, but I guess by the time I got to the end and posted a reply I must have forgotten. Or it could have just been a Freudian slip. Anyway... Thanks, Chris.

*awkwardly trips over an artichoke while trying to exit the room to hide his shame*