Speed Shooting revisited

[Peter Remling]

I saw this over at SBG and thought you all needed to see this. The video referenced is in the first post. Check it out it will change how you look at speed shooting.

http://forum.sword-buyers-guide.com/vie ... 82#p181282

[Jon]

Hmm. Sure looks impressive.

But like someone said in the thread, demoralizing against a bunch of unarmored peasants, but not much more than that. IMHO.

I can shoot 12 arrows a minute, and that's effective all the same.

[Manveruon]

I have issues with some of the more wild theorizing they do about historical archery, and the fact that the whole video is portrayed as a sort of general "show-off" instead of a detailed account of how (and why) it's done. My other gripes are:

A) the narrator implies that all the images in old paintings and tapestries depicting archers are portraying a totally accurate illustration of how archers of the period actually shot. It seems more likely to me that the artist probably did not have a complete understanding of the mechanics of archery, but was simply content with showing a guy in soldier's clothing, holding a bow and arrow, in order to get the idea across. Someone over on the SBG forum said it best here:

As for period art, we can't dismiss it completely but we have to take into account artistic conventions of the period alongside the motives/methods of the people making said art. Were the positions of the bows in the Bayeaux Tapestry due to the makers being clued up on Norman Archery? Or was it hard to weave a 'draw to the face' picture without it looking like the archer was puking out an arrow?

B) we don't actually see any of the figures in those paintings and tapestries holding the arrows the way he suggests they were held. So if those paintings were totally accurate, how can you historically justify holding the arrows that way? And if you say they were historically held that way, you're implying the images weren't 100% accurate, therefore contradicting your previous implication. It's a Catch 22.

C) The equipment he is using appears to be of modern design, which instantly makes his technique different than the originals. For instance, the bow could theoretically be a fairly low poundage (although this is some of the information left out of the video that I would have been interested in). I'd love to see someone do this with a 100+ pound English yew longbow.

And finally, D) He can't really claim to be "learning" the "Old Ways," because (as so often happens with the "Old Ways") they were lost centuries ago. What he is really doing is inventing new ways that might be similar to the "Old Ways," or might not. There's really no way of knowing. Which, I suppose, is a long standing debate among reenactors in general, so I won't go into it any further here.

Regardless of all this though, I won't deny that, unless it's all a really pointless SFX aided hoax, that guy can shoot insanely fast. Which, in and of itself, deserves some pretty serious cool-points.

[Peter Remling]

While no one today can know for sure how they shot in the 1300's, I have a little more faith in Tapestry renderings. This is not the first time a in-plain-sight rendering was later shown to have a lot more credence than just as a piece of art.

If you review the Bayeau Tapestry you will note roughly 90% of the axemen are useing their axe with the opposite grip that the average right handed man would use to chop wood. If you comtemplate that the axe would now be able to attack the man, not the shield, you see that the tapestry appears to relate the most probable form.

The artists were wives and daughters of warriors. While they might not know the whys and wherefors of a particular stance, they can artistically portray what they see.

Do I think this particular archers' got it 100%, nope. I do think it's an interesting take on how to loft a good number of arrows quickly.

[sgainbrachta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... yorHswhzrU#!

This fellow shows what I believe to be a somewhat more realistic set of shooting skills for us mortals to try... I used to do competition shooting, back when I was 12 or so- and believe the videos are real, not enhanced at all- but the real fast shooting is much more difficult with a long bow-primarily due to the length of draw to full power. A horsebow reaches full power, and actually has a sort of "drop off" at full draw, as perceived by the archer. It's not at all like a compound bow, but you DO notice it in the higher pull bows, like those over 60-80 pounds. I think I'll practice the motions used by Kassai- it would be so cool to be able to pop off 12 shots in 20 seconds!

As to hitting anything, I'm good enough to hit the ground with all 12...

[Manveruon]

There's a gentleman in the SCA group out here in Colorado who actually trained with kassai, and apparently he can shoot like that himself, though I've never seen him do so. He's almost a legend for it out here. Pretty hardcore dude.

[Greg]

If your fastest rate-of-fire doesn't involve coming to full-draw, I don't consider it your fastest rate-of-fire. This forum was built on the premise of historical and martial accuracy as related to Tolkien. We can't necessarily assume that our speed-shooting techniques are going to be completely accurate to medieval europe (especially since most of us use a back quiver) but what we CAN do is ensure that our speed-shooting techniques still enable us to have a martially effective arrow delivery, and that requires a pretty much full-draw. He didn't show what kind of chain-maille that was up close...I'd be willing to bet it was butted, which would explain the 1/4 draw going through it with cheap target-pointed carbon arrows. A Wal*Mart youth bow could do the same thing...and the points would be identical.

ARMA and other HEMA groups judge the effectiveness of a particular cut or, dare I use the word, "maneuver", based on its ability to maim, disarm, or kill against a live target. I would much rather put an arrow straight through the chest of two approaching orcs, drop the bow, and draw blades than put half a dozen arrows in the air and have them bounce off armor or simply piss off the approaching Uruk-Hai.

In addition, you can see him walking around with the arrows in his drawing hand, with what looks to be one nock between each finger, allowing him to separate them so he isn't fumbling from one arrow to the next. A good idea to speed himself up, to be sure...but in a martial application it's useless because it requires a setup time. By the time he has those six arrows spread between his fingers, I can have three arrows off the string already, so if he shoots all six in the time it takes me to shoot a few more, we're basically even, and I wasn't fumbling with half a dozen arrows while the orcs were charging...

It's impressive...I won't deny that. I just don't care at all to learn how he does it.

[Peter Remling]

I was thinking about lofting all those clout shoot arrows in the air and was wondering if anyone has done the math.

If I shoot an arrow from a "X" poundage bow at say a 60 degree angle, after it reaches it's peak, it's expended almost all it's momentum. Gravity will then be providing most of the speed and power. How much force will it have when it strikes ? Will a falling arrow puncture a typical shield or maille?

[Greg]

The arrows he's shooting? Heck no. They'd bounce off like a toy.

A 1/2" diameter bodkin-tipped shaft from a 100 lb longbow? I'd think so. This is precisely why you shouldn't shoot a clout at higher than a 45 degree angle, and I don't think that they ever did, historically. The horizontal force the bow gives is maintained, somewhat, because gravity isn't working against its horizontal speed...just its vertical force.

[hesinraca]

De ja vu. we had this chat 2 years ago. Haha.

Impressive speed, but at half draw, like many of you said, it's not 'top speed' at 'top capacity' of the weapon. As a matter of personal perspective... A lot of you know already, but I do horseback archery demonstrations in Oregon and Washington. I don't even practice as much as I should, and I average about 2.4 seconds a shot, a fair bit faster on a good day. I used to ride with Katie Stearns, and on her good days she is even a tad faster than that. That's at full, floating anchor draw, which is 29.5" for me. I consider that to be a decent rate of fire from horseback. I wouldn't sacrifice draw length for shot speed on daily practice any day. If I got swarmed by a horde of people, sure, but it's easier to practice full draw and do half then visa versa...

My two cents.

PS notes - Kassai is actually a bit of a dickhead. He also shoots 3-finger briton because he got his thumb bit off by a horse while he was trying to hit it in the face. The South Korean Mounted archery team's technique is a tad faster than Kassai's (averaged across everyone that uses it) and has less risk for faulty knocking.

EDIT
I shoot a 55# sammic SKB traditional fiberglass. Katie shoots a 41# Saluki Persian hybrid.

[Manveruon]

PS notes - Kassai is actually a bit of a dickhead. He also shoots 3-finger briton because he got his thumb bit off by a horse while he was trying to hit it in the face. The South Korean Mounted archery team's technique is a tad faster than Kassai's (averaged across everyone that uses it) and has less risk for faulty knocking.

Funny, I've heard that about him before. Some folks in the SCA archery group I participate in were talking about him last week, and mentioned that he basically stopped instructing because no one could stand him, heh.

[Odigan]

PS notes - Kassai is actually a bit of a dickhead.

I made this assumption long ago given that every SCA-dian I've met fawns over him and treats his word as gospel.