WINTER MOUNTAIN OVERNIGHT KIT HELP

[Harper]

Right tool for the job. A trade axe is a good choice, very versatile, but I would NEVER baton a hunting knife to split wood! You look after your tools, & they will look after you.
Keith.

I don't do it either--that's what axes are for. Others are fine with it. Not me.

I'd probably have something with a 19-23" handle so it can be used two handed if necessary. It would also make a formidable weapon. I have a Wetterlings Bushman for this kind of scenario.

But a steel hunting knife should be able to withstand a wooden baton. In my opinion, it is one of those survival skills that a person should at least know how to do in case he gets separated from his axe. It is by no means my first choice.

[Le-Loup]

Personally I have never ever had to cut wood for a fire when in the woods, never. I carry three knives & a trade axe. My hunting knife is for skinning & butchering game & for defence. My legging knife is a back-up for my hunting knife to save me time if I should accidently dull the blade on bone. My clasp knife is used for camp chores & making trap parts. My tomahawk is used for shelter construction, defence, recreational throwing, making traps & stakes & hammering stakes into the ground. Also a good back up for hunting.
From what I have observed over the years, batoning is something that was invented by the bushcraft enthusiasts in an attempt to add another bushcraft skill. I find the practice pointless & impracticable. If a person does not know how to acquire dry kindling without batoning a knife, then they can hardly call themselves experienced & they have some learning to do. Keep your blades for the purpose they were intended for traditionally.
Regards, Keith.

[Greg]

From what I have observed over the years, batoning is something that was invented by the bushcraft enthusiasts in an attempt to add another bushcraft skill. I find the practice pointless & impracticable. If a person does not know how to acquire dry kindling without batoning a knife, then they can hardly call themselves experienced & they have some learning to do. Keep your blades for the purpose they were intended for traditionally.

With respect, I can see the merits of your point without necessarily agreeing with it completely.

Batoning, to your credit, I've never encountered in an historical context. Point taken.

Not being able to acquire dry kindling without batoning a knife = inexperienced? Here in the midwestern united states, it can rain for days. Weeks. ANY time of year, for that matter. There is literally no chance for things to dry out most of the year, and the humidity in the air gets under rocks and into caves. There is no readily available dry material without being willing/capable of splitting. Batoning, then, serves a purpose for those who choose to carry a functional and utilitarian anglo-saxon or Norse Seax instead of an Axe, as an example. I, for one, felt that an Axe wasn't at home in my own Dunedain impression, as useful as they are.

Never had to cut wood for a fire? Can you unpack that thought a bit? Are we saying you've never felled a tree for wood, or you've never split wood for a fire? If it's the former, I'm with you...deadfalls are always to be found. If it's the latter...then I'm going to have to chalk your information and experience up to seasonal and climatic differences between Australia and Western Europe/N. America.

Now, the trick is, I think the "hunting knife" you're referring to is significantly smaller than the Seax I'm describing. What most consider a hunting knife nowadays is something I would never baton with...it's not a wood processing implement. Still, writing off batoning entirely seems a bit forward, when in many areas throughout the year the only way to acquire burnable wood is splitting. Calling it pointless and impractical is excessive; my seax was designed with the technique in mind, and is very efficient at processing large (relative) amounts of wood for maintaining a heating fire through a long night.


Bear this in mind: I'm a bushcraft-user without being a bushcraft enthusaist. I don't study youtube, and I don't go into the woods to practice carving notches on sticks...so I'm not defending that group of people; I'm here solely in defense of what I consider a viable skill.

[Harper]

In addition to what Greg mentioned, there is also the question of snow pack and melting snow. There are times when deadfall is covered. Then you have to use what is above the snow--felling a dead tree, cutting off dead limbs, etc. I, and many people living in the Nordic countries and boreal forests, find some type of axe invaluable in the winter. Since this proposed trip is in the mountains in Winter, I think an axe is appropriate.

As far as the batoning, I added it as an afterthought for people who don't want to carry an axe. I'm not a big fan of it. But, there are times when it is appropriate. I've seen people baton Moras and an Opinel #10 just to see the effect on the knife blade. They were both undamaged. I know that people in the American West carry a Bowie knife and regularly use it to process Mesquite.

I understand Le-Loup's admonition about caring for your tools. I do. But tools are meant to be used. I recommended Feredir's hunting knife because it sounded more robust than his dirk. I have workhorse knives that I am okay with batoning if necessary. I have other knives that I would cringe at while batoning--but would still do so with if absolutely necessary.

On to batoning. I remeber that, in Scouts, we were specifically prohibited from batoning. This was before the modern Bushcraft movement existed (at least in the US), so the technique has been around for a while. I don't know that there would be much with respect to historical sources. It was probably one of those things that was just done and chroniclers likely didn't think it worthy of mention.

Anyway, I stand by my recommendation of bringing an axe on an overnight in the mountains in Winter. I think it would be more useful than the hunting knife!

[Le-Loup]

From what I have observed over the years, batoning is something that was invented by the bushcraft enthusiasts in an attempt to add another bushcraft skill. I find the practice pointless & impracticable. If a person does not know how to acquire dry kindling without batoning a knife, then they can hardly call themselves experienced & they have some learning to do. Keep your blades for the purpose they were intended for traditionally.

With respect, I can see the merits of your point without necessarily agreeing with it completely.

Batoning, to your credit, I've never encountered in an historical context. Point taken.

Not being able to acquire dry kindling without batoning a knife = inexperienced? Here in the midwestern united states, it can rain for days. Weeks. ANY time of year, for that matter. There is literally no chance for things to dry out most of the year, and the humidity in the air gets under rocks and into caves. There is no readily available dry material without being willing/capable of splitting. Batoning, then, serves a purpose for those who choose to carry a functional and utilitarian anglo-saxon or Norse Seax instead of an Axe, as an example. I, for one, felt that an Axe wasn't at home in my own Dunedain impression, as useful as they are.

Never had to cut wood for a fire? Can you unpack that thought a bit? Are we saying you've never felled a tree for wood, or you've never split wood for a fire? If it's the former, I'm with you...deadfalls are always to be found. If it's the latter...then I'm going to have to chalk your information and experience up to seasonal and climatic differences between Australia and Western Europe/N. America.

Now, the trick is, I think the "hunting knife" you're referring to is significantly smaller than the Seax I'm describing. What most consider a hunting knife nowadays is something I would never baton with...it's not a wood processing implement. Still, writing off batoning entirely seems a bit forward, when in many areas throughout the year the only way to acquire burnable wood is splitting. Calling it pointless and impractical is excessive; my seax was designed with the technique in mind, and is very efficient at processing large (relative) amounts of wood for maintaining a heating fire through a long night.


Bear this in mind: I'm a bushcraft-user without being a bushcraft enthusaist. I don't study youtube, and I don't go into the woods to practice carving notches on sticks...so I'm not defending that group of people; I'm here solely in defense of what I consider a viable skill.

Once you get a fire started, you can dry wood. Finding dry kindling is a matter of knowing where to look. I will admit that I have never been camping in America, only England & Australia. I have been in South Africa, France & Belgium & I did not see any anything that would make me think I could not make fire in any weather conditions. I pick up wood from the forest floor, sometimes I will break kindling from dead branches with my hands & I will break heavier timber over a rock, but I have never had to cut firewood whilst trekking. I have shaved damp/wet wood with my clasp knife to get at the dry stuff. I search for dry kindling under rocks, rock overhangs, inside hollow trees, under fallen trees, under fallen bark. I have always found enough to start a fire. I carry a couple of short dipped beeswax candles which I can use to place under damp kindling to start a fire. I have made all the parts for a fire-bow & made fire in the pouring rain without the use of any tools other than a piece of rock. I have been making fire for over 60 years, it did not have to take that long to know what I know now, & I wish I had applied myself to learning more when I was a lad. But life has a habit of inserting other priorities into one's thinking. Most of my life has been spent in country areas, but work in the past has meant some city living. I have been living in the woods now for the past 30 odd years.
Regards, Keith.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEOMS ... _as=public

[Feredir (hunter)]

Thank you for changing my mind!!! I think now i will take my axe, the dirk as at least one of you would know comes
In extreme use, so it comes with plus it is to me a very sacred tool to me as it was with all scots. My hunting knife is 6" high carbon thin steel... Not good for batoning with, the dirk if 10" 1/4" thick high carbon and i have chopped a small tree down with... But in winter everything is frozen and i have before chipped the blade of it for it is flat ground and made from a file.... So the axe which is smaller and almost as light as a tomohawk is coming with.
Now as for are little debate.... Yes a axe or tomohawk has its use very much so... But what if you were on the move fast and light?? Like the three hunters in the lotr??? If Aragorn had a tomohawk or small axe in his kit i think he would have left it behind in favour of a large knife.... That is just my thought on this debate.... Cheers!!

[Greg]

I pick up wood from the forest floor, sometimes I will break kindling from dead branches with my hands & I will break heavier timber over a rock, but I have never had to cut firewood whilst trekking. I have shaved damp/wet wood with my clasp knife to get at the dry stuff. I search for dry kindling under rocks, rock overhangs, inside hollow trees, under fallen trees, under fallen bark. I have always found enough to start a fire.

I think, at the end of the day, we're on the same page. I prefer to split wood as opposed to shaving it because it yields a high, dry surface area quickly, and my tool is designed for it. I, too, avoid cutting wood to length with my tools; I beat larger stuff to break it to length on rocks and standing trees just as you've described. I've just found in my experience that splitting yields more dry fuel material faster than drying out unbroken bark/cambium over a small fire will, and I had a seax custom made for the chore. There may not be documented examples of batoning, but people have been hitting wedges with hammers to split wood for centuries...and that's all it is, really. I still do use much the same approach for finding dry kindling material to get going with.

Cheers; good discussion.

Feredir, as far as Aragorn/Rangers specifically go, you may be right there. No Dunedain are ever described as carrying axes, but camp chores aren't really discussed much, either, so we can't rule them out. Aragorn was described as carrying Anduril and "no other weapon", and we know Tolkien thought of Axes as weapons, so for Aragorn, at least, it's case-closed. The rest of the Rangers in the north...that decision I'll leave up to you.

[Harper]

Also, in that example, Gimili had one (or more) axes.

One is probably sufficient for a patrol/squad sized element.

[Feredir (hunter)]

Thank you Greg! And you are quite right there Harper!!

[Cinead]

I would add a bow saw blade. Hear me out......

You can take the blade roll it into a circle and then store it in a round tin. I actually carry one in my belt pouch, albeit it's a short one.

A saw is INVALUABLE in processing firewood. It does a lot fast with minimal loss of calories.

Do I have a reference for them, admittedly no. I do believe that they were readily available in ME due to the high level of carpentry work depicted.

They weigh next to nothing and a field expedient handle can be made in 5 minutes.

[Harper]

I would add a bow saw blade. Hear me out......

You can take the blade roll it into a circle and then store it in a round tin. I actually carry one in my belt pouch, albeit it's a short one.

A saw is INVALUABLE in processing firewood. It does a lot fast with minimal loss of calories.

Do I have a reference for them, admittedly no. I do believe that they were readily available in ME due to the high level of carpentry work depicted.

They weigh next to nothing and a field expedient handle can be made in 5 minutes.

That is very true.

Some people store them in their (double layer) belt.

I think an axe is still more useful in the winter because of ice, snow, etc.

But I do think it is a bit of a stretch for ME. I don't think they would have had such a light flexible tool steel available.

[Kortoso]

Hi everyone!!
So im planning a overnight backpacking trip high up in the mountains of my home this winter, and of course im gonna go ranger style, I think i have everything i need but its always good to make sure so here is the run down of my whole kit that i will be taking...

Kinda getting back to the original post....
Feredir, how much camping in the Great Outdoors have you experienced thus far?
Have you considered doing a campout in your backyard first, just to get the bugs out (so to speak) before you risk all in the wilderness?

[Feredir (hunter)]

Good idea on the saw blade!! I am all about if it works for you than use it! (ie the great kilt)
Now Kortoso! I am a big outdoors man, eagle scout and wilderness survival teacher. Very good idea on camping in your backyard before hand!!! I have done it in my kit many times!! In all sorts of weather, thank you for the wise question.

[Kortoso]

No offense intended.
You seem to be packing a lot of gear, but in the snow, you need all the warmth (and dryness) you can get.

[Le-Loup]

I totally agree with Kortoso, trekking is not all about the equipment you carry, experience & skills play a big part especially if it ever comes to a survival situation. Remember, when packing for the trail, there must be a compromise between two principles; minimum weight & maximum self-reliance. Carry only the basic tools, the knife (or knives), the axe (light belt axe/trade axe/tomahawk) & a bow. You may wish to add a sword if your persona requires it. Water, food, warmth & shelter are necessities. I carry extra clothing in my blanket roll which saves me having to carry more than one blanket, & it is the lighter option. I put on the extra clothing before lying down at night.

By lighting a fire at night there is always the risk of attracting unwanted attention, but when it is really cold there is sometimes no other option. Make sure you set up your shelter so you can have the fire close, & set up rocks (if available, NOT from a water course) at the back to reflect the heat into your shelter. Keep your firewood supply close so you can feed the fire without leaving your bed. Store dry kindling at the back of your shelter in case the fire should go out in the night.

Make sure you are skilled at flint & steel fire lighting, very important in cold & wet weather. All the info you need is on my channel if you need it. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHEOMS ... _as=public
Regards, Keith.