When does a Dunedain use Sindarin vs. Westron?
- Elleth
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When does a Dunedain use Sindarin vs. Westron?
Recently I was remembering a discussion of the HBO "Rome" miniseries, and how an important aspect of the culture was left out merely by virtue of it being filmed in English. That is: the upper classes were educated in Greek, and so if they wished to discuss matters amongst themselves without servants overhearing them, they might switch to that tongue. I've no recollection of hearing of Latin being used the same way in the medieval through Victorian eras, but I'd be rather surprised if it didn't happen at least occasionally.
Which leads me to wonder...
... I assume in Third Age Eriador Sindarin shares that status of being spoken (at least amongst non-elves) by only a few. I'd imagine most all the Rangers - being descendants of the Faithful and allies of Elrond - would be reasonably fluent. Frodo and Bilbo are, as I recall - but they're fairly high-status and well educated as hobbits go.
I could imagine Rangers discussing matters of import in Sindarin while in the common room of the Prancing Pony, purely to keep such matters private from curious ears.
What do you all think?
Which leads me to wonder...
... I assume in Third Age Eriador Sindarin shares that status of being spoken (at least amongst non-elves) by only a few. I'd imagine most all the Rangers - being descendants of the Faithful and allies of Elrond - would be reasonably fluent. Frodo and Bilbo are, as I recall - but they're fairly high-status and well educated as hobbits go.
I could imagine Rangers discussing matters of import in Sindarin while in the common room of the Prancing Pony, purely to keep such matters private from curious ears.
What do you all think?
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- Elwindil
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Re: When does a Dunedain use Sindarin vs. Westron?
I think that such a discussion would mark them as who they are to servants of the Enemy, something that they went to great lengths to avoid if memory serves. I don't think they'd be discussing things of importance in the common room where they could be overheard by others who might speak the language as well, if anything I believe they would've had a code of some sorts that they would have used.
Re: When does a Dunedain use Sindarin vs. Westron?
I dunno.... It would make sense to me - or even Quenya. I assume the Dunedain were probably fairly multi-lingual, so I wouldn't be surprised if they switched back and forth in various contexts to avoid being overheard. But I agree with Elwindil that they would probably not be so incautious as to discuss sensitive matters openly in any language if they thought it likely the servents of the Enemy might be listening.
Maerondir Perianseron, also called “Mickel,” Halfling Friend - Ranger of the Misty Mountains
- Elleth
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Re: When does a Dunedain use Sindarin vs. Westron?
Hrm - yes, you gentlemen are probably right about drawing unwanted attention in common places, that's a good point. I had wondered if there was any Sindarin spoken between Aragorn and Halbarad while amongst the Rohirrim, but didn't see any doing a quick skim.
I don't think Quenya would be used - IIRC it's died out as a living spoken language even amongst the elves. I suspect amongst the Dunedain few read it, and fewer still speak it. I'd be delighted to learn definitively one way or the other though!
I don't think Quenya would be used - IIRC it's died out as a living spoken language even amongst the elves. I suspect amongst the Dunedain few read it, and fewer still speak it. I'd be delighted to learn definitively one way or the other though!
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Re: When does a Dunedain use Sindarin vs. Westron?
I imagine that young men of the Dunedain would use the words of elf-kind to charm the maids of the village of Bree. No wonder those Breelanders hate the Rangers!
Ken
Ken
"Well, what are you waiting for? I am an old man, and have no time for your falter! Come at me, if you will, for I do not sing songs of dastards!"
Re: When does a Dunedain use Sindarin vs. Westron?
Thought that I might as well just interject my voice here. Mightn't they have used Adunaic when discussing sensitive matters? (reference here:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ad%C3%BBnaic) Very few would have spoken it, and your average man would most definitely not be able to make sense of it. I would think few of Sauron's servants would know it either, save possibly the Black Numenoreans. Of course it does seem unlikely, given the fact that Numenor fell over 3000 years before the War of the Ring, but I thought I would just throw this out there to expand the discussion.
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ad%C3%BBnaic) Very few would have spoken it, and your average man would most definitely not be able to make sense of it. I would think few of Sauron's servants would know it either, save possibly the Black Numenoreans. Of course it does seem unlikely, given the fact that Numenor fell over 3000 years before the War of the Ring, but I thought I would just throw this out there to expand the discussion.
A Elbereth Gilthoniel
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o menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-dÃriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
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silivren penna mÃriel
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Na-chaered palan-dÃriel
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- Elleth
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Re: When does a Dunedain use Sindarin vs. Westron?
Ha! I'd not be surprised.Mirimaran wrote:I imagine that young men of the Dunedain would use the words of elf-kind to charm the maids of the village of Bree. No wonder those Breelanders hate the Rangers!
Ken
I don't think so - Westron itself is an evolved pidgin of Adunaic, and the long-distant Faithful Numenorean ancestors of the Dunedain - as I understand it - intentionally distanced themselves from much of the corrupted Numenorean culture of Al Pharazon's time.Mightn't they have used Adunaic when discussing sensitive matters?
Rangers conversing in old Adunaic rather strikes me as - say - Victorian officers choosing to converse in an ancient French dialect, but with an added layer of shame and distate. I'd not call it impossible for the more educated amongst them, but I strongly suspect Adunaic is a somewhat rare and esoteric province of scholars by the Third Age. Someone's reading old scrolls in Minas Tirith though, so I don't think knowledge of it is gone entirely even amongst men.
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Re: When does a Dunedain use Sindarin vs. Westron?
My mom's parents were immigrants from Poland; she said that whenever they wanted to discuss things they didn't want the kids to understand, they used Polish- which only made the kids bend an ear even harder.Elleth wrote:Recently I was remembering a discussion of the HBO "Rome" miniseries, and how an important aspect of the culture was left out merely by virtue of it being filmed in English. That is: the upper classes were educated in Greek, and so if they wished to discuss matters amongst themselves without servants overhearing them, they might switch to that tongue. I've no recollection of hearing of Latin being used the same way in the medieval through Victorian eras, but I'd be rather surprised if it didn't happen at least occasionally.
Which leads me to wonder...
... I assume in Third Age Eriador Sindarin shares that status of being spoken (at least amongst non-elves) by only a few. I'd imagine most all the Rangers - being descendants of the Faithful and allies of Elrond - would be reasonably fluent. Frodo and Bilbo are, as I recall - but they're fairly high-status and well educated as hobbits go.
I could imagine Rangers discussing matters of import in Sindarin while in the common room of the Prancing Pony, purely to keep such matters private from curious ears.
What do you all think?
My wife is from China and will only communicate with our sons in Mandarin. I studied some Chinese at the college level, but I've also noticed that I understand quite a bit more just from exposure (then again, I have a natural talent for languages, and speak eight with varying degrees of fluency).
Vápnum sÃnum skala maðr velli á
feti ganga framar þvà at óvist er at vita
nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
Hávamál
feti ganga framar þvà at óvist er at vita
nær verðr á vegum úti geirs um þörf guma
Hávamál
Re: When does a Dunedain use Sindarin vs. Westron?
Your argument about the Dunedain wanting to distance themselves from corrupt Numenorean culture (which is what they were trying to escape) makes sense, and it probably is true that very few of them spoke Adunaic, thus making it useless for communication.Elleth wrote:
I don't think so - Westron itself is an evolved pidgin of Adunaic, and the long-distant Faithful Numenorean ancestors of the Dunedain - as I understand it - intentionally distanced themselves from much of the corrupted Numenorean culture of Al Pharazon's time.
Rangers conversing in old Adunaic rather strikes me as - say - Victorian officers choosing to converse in an ancient French dialect, but with an added layer of shame and distate. I'd not call it impossible for the more educated amongst them, but I strongly suspect Adunaic is a somewhat rare and esoteric province of scholars by the Third Age. Someone's reading old scrolls in Minas Tirith though, so I don't think knowledge of it is gone entirely even amongst men.
A Elbereth Gilthoniel
silivren penna mÃriel
o menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-dÃriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
nef aear, sà nef aearon!
silivren penna mÃriel
o menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-dÃriel
o galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
nef aear, sà nef aearon!