Middle Earth Ranger Forum

R.D.Metcalf wrote:But in the context of a trek the sword serves me as much as it served our ancestors or our LOTR heroes in that it is practical weapon for a possible *simulated* hostile close range encounter, a symbol of status, a cherished heirloom and constant companion.

I agree with most of what you said there. I, like Eledhwen, don't really care much about rank or status, though my natural inclination is to lead. As such, I do and would do so out of necessity at need, rather than due to a rank given me by some higher power.

By the same token, I carry a sword simply because it's what the Dunedain would have done. Tolkien says so, so I do so. I know that, here in this "seventh" age of the world, I am extremely unlikely to encounter any orcs. I am also extremely unlikely to encounter any sort of combat situation in the woods. Even if I were, I will most likely find myself having brought a rather large knife to a gunfight.

Even so, I carry one. It is dead weight, just as my off-hand long dagger is. The dagger is useful for very few things; I have used it as a drawknife, to shave wood, make fuzzy sticks for firestarting, etc., but it is useful for little else aside from fighting. But I carry it anyway, because I believe that a buckler is, for the most part, too bulky for a Ranger tromping through the woods without it being carried inaccessibly on one's back or in one's pack. However, I.33 can, with some minor variations, be adapted to an arming sword and buckler, and so I practice in this way so that I could do so were it asked of me.

So what does carrying a sword and dagger that borderline on never getting used do for me? It may not give me any status, but I certainly feel rather regal wearing them about my person, regardless of my ragged attire. I daresay that's how a Ranger in Arnor during the great years would have felt:

"I may not be Aragorn. I may not be the captain of my people, or the heir of the kings of Numenor. But I am of those people. I am a man of Numenor. So I shall bear my blade as such, and perform my duties as they come, so that these lands and the free folk who dwell here are safe."

My own natural inclinations are neither to lead nor follow, but my swords are dear to me as I have a great deal of sweat, time and money in their making, procurement, use and maintanence. I carry them with pride.

Most anything makes a decent weapon in a pinch, so I find the weapon aspect a bit base, however,as a tool of self development with its noble lineage I've found the sword to be a positive outlet for my innate aggression. the lessons I've learned through the many patient swordfolk I've met and trained with far transcends any martial value and at the same time in principle can be translated to any situation regardless of the weapon, even unarmed encounters and social scenarios
Fighting is really at the bottom of the list, it is the polishing of the spirit that counts at the end of the day.

R.D.Metcalf wrote:it is the polishing of the spirit that counts at the end of the day.

I detect something worthy of branding on a scabbard in the future...

Certainly, I.33 can be adapted, quite readily to sword and dagger, letting the dagger stand in for the buckler. Personlly, it's my favorite form, fun-wise. Unbelievably fast.

That beign said, the buckler is a much better defense. I agree with Silver's comments on the dagger being "an imperfect defense." Sure, I've hidden under the dagger, but that's a scary place to be. Also, we've discovered that even with a good defense, there are going to be any number of wraps, slight misses and slides that beat the hell out of the dagger hand. Translate that to an edged weapon and you have missing fingers and a shredded hand. And working with serious intent, it's very hard to stop a sword cut with a dagger. To stand up to a sword, a dagger does have to be pretty hefty.

The buckler is far superior for defense, and not bad on the offense, either. I've taken some edge shots on my arm, and even with the restraint we practice, not fun. We do (when not injured) a lot of sparring with sword and buckler and sword and dagger, and the buckler makes for a more reliable defense (as well as sparing my hand...)

But, yeah, it is heavier than a dagger, and not as easy to carry. Up to the individual on whether the weight is worth it. And, a buckler isn't much use as a field tool, unless you need it to hold water for washing...

Pwyll wrote:Certainly, I.33 can be adapted, quite readily to sword and dagger, letting the dagger stand in for the buckler. Personlly, it's my favorite form, fun-wise. Unbelievably fast.

That beign said, the buckler is a much better defense. I agree with Silver's comments on the dagger being "an imperfect defense." Sure, I've hidden under the dagger, but that's a scary place to be. Also, we've discovered that even with a good defense, there are going to be any number of wraps, slight misses and slides that beat the hell out of the dagger hand. Translate that to an edged weapon and you have missing fingers and a shredded hand. And working with serious intent, it's very hard to stop a sword cut with a dagger. To stand up to a sword, a dagger does have to be pretty hefty.
...

i like dagger and sword best too. That said I haven't yet been able to get into longsword ( parents wont let me join the local group), so i've been doing renaissance rapier, its really fun and has lots of similar moves. Anyway, to the point, what you were saying about shredded hands when using daggers, i was wondering, what sort of hilts did the daggers have?

The daggers have pertty good cross hilts, but that still doesn't stop the odd hit from getting through.

In addition, the guy I train with has this very annoying habit of chaning his target in midswing, essentailly drawing the dagger block in order to hit the hand. With a buckler it doesn't matter. Gives me a whole new appreciation for basket hilts, though...

We both come from a background of Filipino martial arts and have found that the moves from I.33 look VERY familiar, when you thing about the obvious transitions between the wards.

would a cup hilt work/be accurate for what you are doing?
yeah fencing is loads different, but it has some of the same moves and other similar moves as longswaord, and i've noticed that with my cup hilt rapier my hands are much more protected then they were when i was using one of the swept hilt ones, also i get no hits to the hand but the people at practise with swept hilt rapiers get a fair few hits to the hand. dunno if this is any help, just wondering

Cup hitls are a good step above a simple cross hilt, but a full basket is better. Of course, depends on the style of combat you're practicing, and I somehow don't recall Aragorn's basket hilted broadsword... LOL Or his buckler.

Also, when you say "fenccing" the term is kind of vague. Not sure if you're referring to what is nowadays called "fencing" with foils, epees, etc., or the older term, which really refers to any weapon combat. "Fence" and "Defense" from the same root... And this determines whether you have to deal with cut and thrust, or thrust only. It changes things a lot. And I really can't recommend Silver's Paradoxes of Defense enough.

But, as always, remember that this is my opinion only, and many others here have much to offer, and plenty of experience. I'm just giving my view on things. And I am an opinionated old fart.

Basket hilts evolved as steel gauntlets went out of vogue towards the end of the 16th century. I prefer a cross hilt longsword the weapon is simply more practical in a combat scenario but I've handled enough arming swords to give someone real trouble with that weapon as well. This is why I always advise going custom you can find your "perfect length", to use Silvers term, and match closely your longsword and arming sword. Too short and you lose range, too long and you cant uncross with speed.

True fencing applies to the whole medieval arsenal and the principles can even be applied to firearms. The study of the longsword was the root and the spear, lance, pollaxe etc. were the branches, this seemed to be a universal training methodology as Musashi in 'The Book of Five rings' tells us "the long sword is the key to strategy" yet he advocated and trained everything from bows, guns, and pollarms very similar to the European masters' curriculum.

So in my opinion based on what the ancients have to say is that fencing encompasses the whole of combat art and science, and while the sword may lie at the heart, the principles and mindset apply to any weapon or situation.

LOL Well said, R.D. Sounds like you're also channeling Meyer. The longsword his his main vehicle to teach the principles, and everything else follows from that.

Thank you, Pwyll
That was pretty much the case with the whole German tradition, however Meyer did illustrate it more beautifully than any of his predecessors.

Working my way through their material I'm starting to fall in with Brandon Heslop and Ben Braddocks theory of a pan-european martial curriculum. Their translation of cotton titus and the harleian manuscript shows a remarkable or perhaps *not so remarkable similarity to the "German School" of longsword fencing. *Unremarkable in that their is only so many ways to fight with a sword.

I do enjoy the colorful Middle english terms, for instance: the Kron or crown is in the english material "a reverence to the cross of thy hilt" or simply "a reverence to the cross" , also there is the "unicorn", the "dragons taille", Vom Tag is the "Hawke" . All performed like the German guards but with the delightful little distraction of the colorful names, that at least for me are easier to remember

Swords are just plain fun, I love the damned things.

But referring back to what you posted earlier about your sword and dagger exercises, I completely understood what you said about the parrying dagger, and I firmly believe there is a special place in lowest hel for hand snipers

LOL! Yes! Tell that to the guy I train with! No, I'll tell him!

Of course, in reality, that's a great way to win a fight. Of course, I've noticed that when using baskets and buckers, things change. All of a sudden, both of us are hunting wrists and arms.

I'm not at all familiar with cotton titus or the harleian manuscript, so I'm going to have to looke those up. They do sound fascinating. English?

Of course, I did get imprinted with the German names early on, thanks to Meyer and the whole Lichtenauer (sp?) tradition. So, used to Von Tag, Ochs, Pflugh, Alber, etc. But Meyer also differs a bit on a few of these. And it's odd to see Ox referred to as Boar, when dealing with a messer (I think it's for messer, I'll have to look at that again).

And, oh yes, they're just plain fun. I particularly love winding practice. Like a game of high speed chess. Or a wind off of Kron, suddenly puntuated with a left hook. Or managing to sneak in a kick of some kind. Trying to get in a shot without taking one in return, because trading sucks.

And our battle cry, "Free stuff!"

Pwyll wrote:Certainly, I.33 can be adapted, quite readily to sword and dagger, letting the dagger stand in for the buckler. Personlly, it's my favorite form, fun-wise. Unbelievably fast.

That beign said, the buckler is a much better defense. I agree with Silver's comments on the dagger being "an imperfect defense." Sure, I've hidden under the dagger, but that's a scary place to be. Also, we've discovered that even with a good defense, there are going to be any number of wraps, slight misses and slides that beat the hell out of the dagger hand. Translate that to an edged weapon and you have missing fingers and a shredded hand. And working with serious intent, it's very hard to stop a sword cut with a dagger. To stand up to a sword, a dagger does have to be pretty hefty.

The buckler is far superior for defense, and not bad on the offense, either. I've taken some edge shots on my arm, and even with the restraint we practice, not fun. We do (when not injured) a lot of sparring with sword and buckler and sword and dagger, and the buckler makes for a more reliable defense (as well as sparing my hand...)

But, yeah, it is heavier than a dagger, and not as easy to carry. Up to the individual on whether the weight is worth it. And, a buckler isn't much use as a field tool, unless you need it to hold water for washing...

All of this very true. Buckler requires far less "care" to be employed effectively. The adaptation has some pretty impressive limitations, most noticeably what you mentioned about how hard it is to stop the mass of an incoming sword with a dagger. In my free sparring sessions working with arming sword and dagger, I've found that there are a good number of plates from I.33 that are simply impractical, and so have limited the range of the system that I'm able to perform with the dagger. Especially when sparring with a partner wielding a longsword, the only option for displacing an oberhau is to use the sword itself, and have the dagger function strictly as a weapon for a follow-up during the bind.

This doesn't count for everything...I just find that, for the most part, the dagger is most useful for displacing thrusts. I've noticed (through my VERY limited research on the subject), that this fairly well mimics the use of the dagger in rapier and dagger writings. It makes the whole system far less flexible than using the buckler, for the most part, but it's still often handy to have a blade instead of pure blunt trauma in the left hand.

Pwyll wrote:.
Also, when you say "fenccing" the term is kind of vague. Not sure if you're referring to what is nowadays called "fencing" with foils, epees, etc., or the older term, which really refers to any weapon combat. "Fence" and "Defense" from the same root... And this determines whether you have to deal with cut and thrust, or thrust only. It changes things a lot. And I really can't recommend Silver's Paradoxes of Defense enough.
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oh, woops sorry, i do renassaince rapier, think the three musketeers sort of thing, same time frame as Silver, in fact in Paradoxes of defense he makes some interesting comments about Rapier. we do the whole reconstructing from old manuals too, the group im in primarily uses Ridolfo Capoferro's text, but we also use some of the other masters books to fill in the gaps of knowledge that they assume you already have. we do the italian style stuff not the spanish style(its quite different)
i just say fencing cos its easier, i'm not constantly having to stop and explain,i suppose a more accurate term would be historical fencing.
have you had a look at the part of Aggripa's fencing manual that deals with longsword? i can send it to you if you haven't, i thought you might be interested

Inigo Montoya: [Both characters are engaged in a sword fight] You are using Bonetti's Defense against me, ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo Montoya: Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally... but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don't you?
Inigo Montoya: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa... which I have.