Some Fyne Fast Shooting

[Odigan]

Note the use of the inverted hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI

[Ringulf]

Damn! That girl needs a pair of pointy ears!
Must have been Legolos's Arch rival in gym class!

I love the inverted draw it seems by doing that she can draw, knock and release without changing the hand position.

I had seen this in Mongol horse archery but never realized that the hand position could increase speed or efficiency.

I may have to try this!

[Jon]

That is some seriously crazy shooting!!! I once tried using an inverted hand to pull back, but just found it felt weird. Does it make it at all faster?

[Ringulf]

Well this young lady seems to have it down but I think , Dirhael, that by keepng the hand inverted wich is how it can be drawn from the back quiver, one can knock on the same side they draw and rest their arrow on. No slipping the arrow through the yolk and string or turning over the hand and losing the grip for a second as you knock. She just has one fluid movement from the same side of the bow and as she grips from in front of the fletching she has her knock free. The only time it looks as though she lets go of the arrow is the slide to draw and release and she does that so freakin' fast that it looks like she never looses contact with the shaft at all!

Yeah right handed with a back quiver?

The only way to beat her is with a stick!

[Jon]

They would have to be pretty light arrows to be able to knock like she does... holding just the nock of the arrow with two fingers. When I pull them out of the quiver, I grab them just under their fletchings, rest the arrow on the bow, and then nock while sliding my hand back to a draw. I can shoot an arrow every 5 seconds, maybe even 4.5, but slightly inaccurately.
I am right handed, yea.

[Ringulf]

Look at her last set. Doesn't it seem to you that she actually grips the arrow from the fletches? It is kind of hard to see but that is what gave me the impretion that she was drawing leaving the knock free.

Though you are right in all the other sets with her moving and all it does look like two fingers on the knock.

[Manveruon]

Absolutely brilliant! There are a few other amazing quick-shot videos around Youtube too, if you look.

[Willrett]

wow.... um looks like good ranger training drills.

[Greg]

The biggest problem with inverting one's hand on the string is that the anchor point is bound to be inconsistent. The arm just doesn't lock into place on the side of your face, jaw, etc. like a finger to the corner of your mouth, etc. For accuracy in shooting, EVERYTHING has to be identical, every time. That's why we spine test arrows, make nocking points on our strings, etc. Consistency = Consistency, if that makes sense. Though what she's accomplished here is certainly impressive and respectable, you can tell that her accuracy is less than stellar. It's impressive considering the speed, but it could be better. Her groups appeared larger than an average torso, which doesn't justify the speed, in my mind. I know it's not necessarily right or fair to criticize someone's skill when yours isn't up to the standard being discussed, but that's the main issue I have with shooting with an inverted hand.

One other thing to note: it doesn't appear that she has standard fletching on her arrows. The fletching looks tiny, and, to be honest, it actually looks like there may only be two on each arrow.

I agree with the above comment that the arrows look very lightweight, too. I wonder how much a heavier hunting tip or field point would affect this.

All in all, that definitely is a standard to strive for. While I agree that keeping the hand inverted is a good way to cut down on time, the accuracy advantages gained by turning the hand back over outweight the need for speed, for me. Ringulf, you can actually turn your hand over without losing contact...when you nock to the string, keep your thumb in contact, and rotate your hand around to the back. You can do it without looking, your thumb stays in touch and keeps the nock on the string, and it happens in a blink.

Will, you're totally right. Work on your accuracy, work on your speed...and then work on being able to do it while walking around, from cover to cover. Good practice. Good skillset.

Sorry everybody if I'm being a party-pooper...but I can't justify in my own mind inverting my hand.

[Ringulf]

Again I go back to "the right tool for the right job" policy.

I could not fathom for an instant that this young lady could not beat the pants off us all when it came to accuracy, if that was what she was striving for. Weather or not her hand comes back to a better position for it is another thing.

If I am in the cover of a great shooting spot and have the luxury of time as well, you bet I am using every thing I know about making that one arrow find it's mark.

However if I am in the open with dozens of orcs running about trying to slay me, my comrades or my people like that last battle scene in BoH, I would not mind doing the Elven/horse archer thing and spraying them with arrows.

She really has no set knock point I believe, as I have also seen with the horse archers I have watched, in their case it makes no sense to draw to a fixed point when you are being jostled around by a horse or running/moving. Then the knock point becomes a disadvantage and the consistant draw to an unfixed point as she does acts like a shock absorber.

At that point there is alot to say about intuitive shooting like the Viking archers did as they drew to the ear past the point of an anchor.

I do agree with you Greg as far as a begining archer should first work on accuracy through consistancy, so though this type of fast shooting has its place and challenge, Follow Greg's advice!

Oh and BTW That is a great pointer about the thumb on the string, since I shoot off the finger I normally put a bit of back pressure on the string and clamp the shaft with my left index finger as I bring my hand around to draw. It is almost an unconscious movement now I have been doing it so long. But I could see that thumb pin working very well, Thanks!

[Jonathan B.]

Drawing and anchoring to the corner of the mouth is a relatively new idea, as in the Victorian era I Believe (i could well be wrong). I do know that English longbow men drew to the ear and did not aim down the shaft but instead kept their attention wholly on the target.Now I agree her accuracy is some what lacking but I am sure if she wanted to she could out shoot most/all of us.

[deadextra]

The things that stood out to me about the video was that her arms are doing all of the work in the draw and on many occasions, her left arm was not even straight. This tells me that the weight of the bow is very low when compared to war bows of any ethnicity. Secondly I'd attribute the inverted hand to the Rus or Mongolian style of horse archers, having the nocking hand on the same side as the hand on the bow allows you to more easily twist in in the saddle while drawing, tilting the bow to stabilize the arrow against the stave.

I'm a beginner archer at best and don't aspire to more at the moment, these are just observations I've not noticed stated so far.

[Greg]

The things that stood out to me about the video was that her arms are doing all of the work in the draw and on many occasions, her left arm was not even straight. This tells me that the weight of the bow is very low when compared to war bows of any ethnicity.

Agreed.

As for the draw, yes, it'd have an advantage in a saddle, much like a thumb ring does, though I believe the Mongols simply deposited their arrows on the right side of the bow, because the twist of using the thumb ring pulled the arrow into the bow that way...if that makes sense. Try loading your arrow on the right side and then use a three-finger draw...it'll pull it right off the bow. Opposite sides, same effect.

Anywho, I do actually believe, Ringulf, that drawing to the ear counts as an anchor point just as much as any other point on the face. Yes, the corner of the mouth is a relatively new placement, but it is very much rooted in the foundation of consistency, which has been around much longer.

[Ringulf]

Yes Greg, it is definitely considered an anchor point, but due to the offset it is not one you can aim from so in essence yes you get the consistancy of drawing to the same point but you do not get to aim over the shaft using the front and back of the arrow as "sights" to the target. Instead one must focuss on the target and go by intuitive aiming. Which was more my point.

[theowl]

Here's an article on her "dagger technique" that shows the arrows she was using a bit closer. It also talks about drawing multiple arrows at once but doesn't show it in action. Also it's in Russian, so google translate. http://walker30.narod.ru/abakan.htm