Middle Earth Ranger Forum

So it's my understanding that in Western Europe, pattern welded blades were supplanted by consistent homogeneous steel sometime around the 10th-12th centuries. And further, that for more mundane hand tools the practice of forging a steel cutting surface to a cheaper/easier-to-work iron core lasted through the 18th and (I think?) into the early 19th century.

Is that broadly correct?

What then would we expect to see in the scabbards and sheaths of the Dunedain in the Angle?

I assume steel-tipped iron knives and hand tools would remain the same - but what about swords and spears? Is there sufficient infrastructure in place to refine homogeneous steel, or would pattern welding still the rule, at least for human-made items? Might though even a mundane Gondorian blade be different from one made by the Rohirrim? For that matter, how does trade with Dwarves and Elves affect the mix?

I assume in the pre-Industrial world of Middle Earth, that a blade made of uniformly refined steel would have more social cache that even a nice pattern-welded piece, all other things (history, ornamentation) held equal. Though I could imagine Dwarves or Elves, having mastered the former, might return to the latter for sheer beauty, much as we have in our modern world. But it's a different world with different assumptions, so I'm not certain.

Thoughts?

History tells us that neighboring countries would not only trade for finished goods but also bars of the metal and other raw materials based on their production both quantity and quality. This was not only cheaper than trading finished goods it allowed local crafters to fashion weapons or goods in regional fashion.

I believe that Elves and Dwarves would have traded the raw materials and the local human artisans would complete the items: Weapons, armor, furniture, clothing and medicinal remedies. What we end up with is locally made weapons, armor and other items made of quality materials in local fashion.

I believe you are correct that the practice of welding a steel edge into iron continued well into the 1800s. As to the relationship between pattern-welding and homogeneous steel in ME, I am stumped.
Though I assume that since the Angle is right proximal to the East Road, the Dunedain would have plenty of dealings with the dwarves passing through (who are "agents" - Letter 154) for raw materials (refined iron bars, etc) which they could then forge into implements of their own styling.

Your mention of Rohan made me remember this quote from Theoden:
"And to you my other guests I will offer such things as may be found in my armoury. Swords you do not need, but there are helms and coats of mail of cunning work, gifts to my fathers out of Gondor. Choose from these ere we go, and may they serve you well!" (Book 3, Ch 6).

I realized that one thing clearly missing in the south (at least until Gimli makes his colony at Aglarond) is dwarves, who are responsible (it seems) for most of the metallurgy in the North in the late 3A. Even aside from Saruman's industrial practices (lots of iron coming out of Isengard), I have to assume that Gondor or Rohan must be smelting their own iron--and trading with each other?--and haven't just been holding onto family heirlooms from ages past.

By "consistent homogeneous steel" I assume you mean crucible steel or something like it. That was not done in Europe in the 10th-12th century, and current theory is that crucible steel was made at that time in Asia and imported.

But the practice of forge-welding steel to iron was a common practice. No need for any of this for spearheads and arrowheads; regular iron will suffice for these generally.

I'm not sure how scabbards and sheaths figure into this.

Both pattern-welding and crucible steel requires a lot of resources from medieval style smiths. Given, however, the special industry and artistry we expect from the dwarves and elves, of course, I suppose anything is possible.

Kortoso wrote:I'm not sure how scabbards and sheaths figure into this.

I think this was a poetic way of wondering what the standard sword/knife was like. Kinda like that TV ad a few years ago,"What's in your Wallet?"

I think this was a poetic way of wondering what the standard sword/knife was like. Kinda like that add a few years ago,"What's in your Wallet?"

Ha! Yes, exactly. I pray pardon for the confusion.

Given that the question is directed at metallurgy in ME, I think the real answer is just as speculative as what we know about early steel production.

Not to get sidetracked, as overly fixating on terminology isn't really necessary to answer the question, to my mind, but... while some will define otherwise I can say that generally speaking:

Pattern welding is a mechanical lamination process, where iron or steel of different compositions are welded, twisted, and/or folded to homogonize the carbon content.
Crucible steel is a chemical process whereby carbon - usually in the form of charcoal - is introduced to the iron ore in a closed crucible.
Wootz steel is a form of crucible steel produced using particular ore once mined in India, whose composition produced a superior product. Wootz steel is crucible steel but not all crucible steel is Wootz.

All of these methods were known during the Classical period, and while it is not known if the Romans made their own crucible steels, they were technologically capable of it, and certainly used plenty. Their equivalent to "Wootz" was Noric steel, originating from mines in Noricum which yielded ores particularly well suited to steel production. They were also familiar with the cementation process of steel manufacture (of which crucible steel is a form), where iron soaks up carbon within a furnace rather than a closed vessel. In some times and places the product of this was also known as "blister steel" or "shear steel" for its use in shears and similar implements, as the quantity produced is small and it is often used solely for cutting edges and wear surfaces. The lamination of steel to iron only as needed was not simply a matter of economy, but practicality, as in axes, chisels, hammers, and anvils, for example, it is beneficial to have a soft body to absorb shock while only the cutting/striking surface is required to be hardened.

So far as the specifics of steel composition in ME, I believe Tolkien himself is rather silent? Making direct analogues to historical European manufacture of steel may not be necessary, and certainly not beyond the "broadness" of the question as posed. If all of the basic methods of steel production are assumed to be known in ME, then we can focus on the crux of the matter, and that is cultural rather than technological. What I mean by this is that if we pursue a direct historical comparison, then Hobbits, living in something akin to 19th C. England, should have the best blades of all!

Elleth wrote:

I think this was a poetic way of wondering what the standard sword/knife was like. Kinda like that add a few years ago,"What's in your Wallet?"

Ha! Yes, exactly. I pray pardon for the confusion.

You keep on waxing poetic, Elleth

Odigan wrote:

What I mean by this is that if we pursue a direct historical comparison, then Hobbits, living in something akin to 19th C. England, should have the best blades of all!

What a great point, Odigan, and a great subject. As to the Shire, I think this perhaps is Tolkien's point, that since the Hobbits were isolated in relative peace, and were law abiding, what use would they have had for swords and articles of war? So, I would think that items related to farming, cultivation and the like would have no equal among the farmers of Men, but a sword would have had a better home in the Mathom-house than on the hip of a Bounder, or a Hobbit Ranger, or Knight, or what have you.

Maybe we can look historically to the Vikings and their trading routes to show how technology can travel thousands of miles. Here is an interesting documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6woycxQzA0

Ken

Hunh - I'd not known all those methods were used so early - fascinating!

So... if a hypothetical Dunedain Ranger were to see a sword made from a common blade steel of today: what might he think of it? High art beyond human skill? A nice piece but not unusual? Humdrum?

Let me just leave this here:

https://youtu.be/HgxoRx6GBso

Ken

Elleth wrote: So... if a hypothetical Dunedain Ranger were to see a sword made from a common blade steel of today: what might he think of it? High art beyond human skill? A nice piece but not unusual? Humdrum?

Visually, any monosteel would be more or less indistinguishable from any other, all things being equal - so far as surface finish and such. What do you consider "common blade steel?" Something in the range of 1045 to 1075 would be comparable to many of the simple steels they would be familiar with, but free of inclusions and fully homogenized, making them technically superior even for a given carbon content. Higher carbon or alloyed steels like 1095, 5160, 52100, or 80CrV2 would demonstrate seemingly otherworldly performance in all ways compared to even the best historic pieces, but you couldn't tell that just by looking at it.

I just wanted to pop in for a moment to say that these sorts of discussions are just leagues beyond my own understanding of history and technology, but I am so glad they happen here because I learn heaps of information about which I would otherwise remain entirely ignorant. In short, I love these discussions!

Okay, that's all. Carry on, folks!

I'm still behind on the forums, so I'm just coming across this discussion. As a smith, this topic interests me immensely. For a while now, I have toyed with the idea of trying to study Tolkein's works from the Silmarilian onward to see what I can glean about their metalworking. But I can't find my copy of the Sil at the moment. In my own mind, I am trying to formulate many things about forges, fuels, materials and styles of the different cultures in Middle Earth. I will post more on this - likely in an independent thread - when I can gather my thoughts on the subject.