Middle Earth Ranger Forum

Every now and again I hop over to eavesdrop on what the Roman folks are doing, and one of the guys on RAT just posted this reconstruction of a Hellenistic back quiver:



I'm sure a pure Tolkien immersionist could spin a great story about Gondorean practices surviving all the way down to the 5th(?) age.... I mostly think it's cool to see the things aren't purely a 20th c. American practice and really do have a Western European lineage, albeit older than our standard period.

That's actually really cool, and a phenomenal bit of reverse-engineering from those photos. Heck of a reconstruction.

I chuckled at 01:25, though. If you've never used a back quiver, this fellow just learned why so many of ours have a low scoop in the throat of ours.

Well, so much for "no shoulder quivers in ancient Europe", haha.

I think that part of the problem with shoulder quivers is that they are usually attached to a single strap over one shoulder, across the back and under the opposite arm. Adding a weight (the quiver) to that causes the weight to rotate down to its lowest position.

The result is that the mouth of the quiver is never as high as the hand would like.

I've tried added a strap to the top of the quiver and tying it to my belt. This moves the mouth of the quiver to a better position for drawing arrows. Can I ask somebody else to experiment with this and confirm?

Kortoso - I've not experienced that with mine - if anything, mine rides up a bit.

I suspect what you're experiencing is from the quiver strap itself being a bit loose. Does it still rotate out of place if you tighten the strap some more?
(alternately, perhaps move the top point of attachment higher on the quiver body?)

Moving the lower attachment point higher up the side of the quiver will change the angle that the arrows rest at. If the strap passes under your arm and goes immediately horizontal to meet the quiver about 1/2way up, you'll notice a wonderful difference.

Kortoso wrote:Well, so much for "no shoulder quivers in ancient Europe", haha.

So the next question is, why were they so apparently prevalent (read: existed at all) in ancient Greece compared to later Europe?

It seems like it prioritizes transport over ease of access. The cover makes me think that the users of this type of quiver were more interested in keeping their arrows safe and secure rather than having them quickly and immediately to hand. Maybe archers would have dropped this quiver to the waist when preparing to shoot but carried them on their back when on the move? The depictions on the pottery could be soldiers caught off-guard, or artistic error.

Greg wrote:Moving the lower attachment point higher up the side of the quiver will change the angle that the arrows rest at. If the strap passes under your arm and goes immediately horizontal to meet the quiver about 1/2way up, you'll notice a wonderful difference.

I've never experimented with this myself, but all of the quivers I've seen designed this way do indeed seem to lay better.

For my part, I basically always pass my quiver strap through my waist belt, and it really does help. It doesn't absolutely eliminate the need for periodic adjustment, but it does make it significantly more secure than if it's just hanging loose.

Moving the lower attachment point higher up the side of the quiver will change the angle that the arrows rest at. If the strap passes under your arm and goes immediately horizontal to meet the quiver about 1/2way up, you'll notice a wonderful difference

hunh. I would never have thought of that. Interesting!

... is it just me, or are we all starting to reap a snowball effect of expertise lately?

Elleth wrote:

... is it just me, or are we all starting to reap a snowball effect of expertise lately?

Indeed! Pretty sweet, no?

Elleth wrote:

... is it just me, or are we all starting to reap a snowball effect of expertise lately?

*whispers....Year of the Ranger.... *

Ken

SierraStrider wrote:

Kortoso wrote:Well, so much for "no shoulder quivers in ancient Europe", haha.

So the next question is, why were they so apparently prevalent (read: existed at all) in ancient Greece compared to later Europe?

It seems like it prioritizes transport over ease of access. The cover makes me think that the users of this type of quiver were more interested in keeping their arrows safe and secure rather than having them quickly and immediately to hand. Maybe archers would have dropped this quiver to the waist when preparing to shoot but carried them on their back when on the move? The depictions on the pottery could be soldiers caught off-guard, or artistic error.

Now you're getting all archaeological and stuff...
Keep in mind that one difference between the two cultures is not just time but location. There may be a consideration for the weather in Northern Europe that forces archers to keep their quivers by their sides so the fletching can be covered by a cloak. In Greece, maybe it's not quite that wet.
On the other hand, styles of culture don't always follow any logical pattern.
Of course, a third culture to look at is the horse archers of Asia (Scythians, Mongols). AFAIK, they always kept their quivers at their side.

The cover makes me think that the users of this type of quiver were more interested in keeping their arrows safe and secure rather than having them quickly and immediately to hand. Maybe archers would have dropped this quiver to the waist when preparing to shoot but carried them on their back when on the move? The depictions on the pottery could be soldiers caught off-guard, or artistic error.

Given how many consistent references we see in that video, I think it's safe to say the pictured quivers were meant to be carried and used on the back as depicted.
But a quick google image search of Greek pottery shows tons of waist quivers to - lots from eastern opponents, but also (I think) Greeks.
It seems the waist quiver shows up in military contexts more often (I can't tell which side) with the back quiver more in hunting contexts - but that's a very small sample size, a very quick survey, and I know nothing about that part of the field, so I'm disinclined to attribute that observation to anything other than the random selection I saw.

Keep in mind that one difference between the two cultures is not just time but location. There may be a consideration for the weather in Northern Europe that forces archers to keep their quivers by their sides so the fletching can be covered by a cloak. In Greece, maybe it's not quite that wet.

I wondered at that question of location - it's also possible there's more underbrush in northwest Europe to snag your fletching on than in a Mediterranean climate, but anything I can think of sounds like a just-so story.
Lacking any reference, I'm leaning towards fashion and historical accident, but don't hold that with any strong conviction.

*whispers....Year of the Ranger.... *

I smell it in the air...

And as I said, sometimes style doesn't fit any logical pattern.

And yea, there be a quickening upon the springtime breeze.

Very cool

Very cool