Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

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Darnokthemage
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Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Darnokthemage » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:24 pm

As im from Northern sweden i have access to some sleighs from the 1800s, and my family happen to have horses. So ive been thinking about sleighs in Middle Earth, are they mentioned anywhere? I can't seem to remember any, but you people maybe know?

Ive also come in possesion of an old 1800s dog(yes, dog)fur pelt. It is heavy and reaches down to my knees.
It is similar to this one:
Image

Does Tolkien ever mention fur jackets?
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Taurinor
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Taurinor » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:09 pm

I’m not sure about fur jackets, but he did mention fur-LINED garments:

From The Lord of the Rings, Book II The Ring Goes South, Chapter 3 The Ring Goes South - “All were well furnished by Elrond with thick warm clothes, and they had jackets and cloaks lined with fur.”
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Darnokthemage
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Darnokthemage » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:44 pm

Hmm, yeah i was hoping there was more. The lack of fur coats and jackets in medieval europe is also interesting. Might seem to have carried over to middle earth...
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Harper
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Harper » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:58 pm

Appendix A and B have brief descriptions of the Lossoth and how they aided King Arvedui.

They built homes in the snow and used both sleds and bone skates.

There is not a lot there though.
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Iodo
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Iodo » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:01 pm

Darnokthemage wrote:As im from Northern sweden i have access to some sleighs from the 1800s, and my family happen to have horses. So ive been thinking about sleighs in Middle Earth, are they mentioned anywhere? I can't seem to remember any, but you people maybe know?

A kit including this kind of thing would be fascinating to see and I'm going to quote Taurinor when I say "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so just because there’s no mention of something doesn’t necessarily mean it isn't there"

In a cold and snowy region in the north of Middle Earth, where there would be need for such things, I would expect people would use them, I guess the next question to ask is who would use them?
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
Darnokthemage
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Darnokthemage » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:35 pm

I would say that it is likely that the Dalesmen used them, as dale and northern sweden have a lot in common.

The sleigh would be a useful and practical asset for all dalish homeasteaders. It is most likely used for going to dale in the winter months, to sell the summer and fall produce, such as furs, barley and butter. With a strong horse you can take wmthe family with you, and still have space for tools, cloth or toys that is bought there.

In a middle earth setting the dog-fur coat is likely made from warg fur, maybe made after the battle of five armies?

The usage of this type of clothing was to keep warm on long journies on sleigh or sled, maybe to sell charcoal to dwarven merchants, or timber to the shipcrafters in Esgaroth.

It was usually worn (in real life) with a knitted or woven belt, broad and wrapped in an X on the chest.
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Iodo
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Iodo » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:40 pm

Darnokthemage wrote:I would say that it is likely that the Dalesmen used them, as dale and northern sweden have a lot in common.

The sleigh would be a useful and practical asset for all dalish homeasteaders. It is most likely used for going to dale in the winter months, to sell the summer and fall produce, such as furs, barley and butter. With a strong horse you can take wmthe family with you, and still have space for tools, cloth or toys that is bought there.

The usage of this type of clothing was to keep warm on long journies on sleigh or sled, maybe to sell charcoal to dwarven merchants, or timber to the shipcrafters in Esgaroth.

It was usually worn (in real life) with a knitted or woven belt, broad and wrapped in an X on the chest.

Nice analysis, it sounds very plausible for the traveling trader, something like this would make for an interesting persona :P


Darnokthemage wrote:In a middle earth setting the dog-fur coat is likely made from warg fur, maybe made after the battle of five armies?

an impressive war trophy indeed :mrgreen:
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Taurinor » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:05 am

Darnokthemage wrote:Hmm, yeah i was hoping there was more. The lack of fur coats and jackets in medieval europe is also interesting. Might seem to have carried over to middle earth...

The lack of fur coats and jackets in medieval Europe (especially the High Middle Ages in England and I think France) in in part due to sumptuary laws and Forest law. Only certain people were allowed to wear certain furs by law. I wouldn't expect that to be the case in Middle-earth, and some folks on the forum (I think Greg and Elleth, but I can't find the threads at the moment) have suggested that leather would be a more commonly used resource among the Dunedain, clothing and gear-wise, than it would have been among medieval Europeans. It's definitely a read-between-the-lines sort of interpretation, though; compelling and well thought out, but not something where we can point to clear examples in the text.

Iodo wrote:A kit including this kind of thing would be fascinating to see and I'm going to quote Taurinor when I say "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so just because there’s no mention of something doesn’t necessarily mean it isn't there"

Just as a note, that is a line of logic meant to be used extremely sparingly - it turns into "orcs carried automatic firearms because Tolkien didn't say they didn't" really quite quickly (see the Uzi Rule). Not to say that it's not appropriate here, but it's something to be careful with.
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Iodo
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Iodo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:50 am

Taurinor wrote:
Iodo wrote:A kit including this kind of thing would be fascinating to see and I'm going to quote Taurinor when I say "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so just because there’s no mention of something doesn’t necessarily mean it isn't there"

Just as a note, that is a line of logic meant to be used extremely sparingly - it turns into "orcs carried automatic firearms because Tolkien didn't say they didn't" really quite quickly (see the Uzi Rule). Not to say that it's not appropriate here, but it's something to be careful with.

that's a good point I didn't think to add, thanks :P
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
Darnokthemage
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Darnokthemage » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:26 pm

Orc machine guns? I thought that was for the Numenoreans only...
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Iodo
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Iodo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:07 pm

Darnokthemage wrote:Orc machine guns? I thought that was for the Numenoreans only...

lol :mrgreen:
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
Darnokthemage
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Darnokthemage » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:14 pm

Image
foton online

Took the time to draw a dalish farmer going on a trading journey to Dale. The horse is a bit weird. I dont have a sleigh like this, as this one is a fantasy creation.
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Iodo
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby Iodo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:47 pm

Nice work :P
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
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SierraStrider
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Re: Sleighs and other winter transport? And fur jackets

Postby SierraStrider » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:38 pm

I've been wanting to make some traditional wooden skis for winter trekking, along with a travois or pulk. Unfortunately, the snow in the Sierra is too warm for most traditional ski waxes--this is the land for scales and skins. I know that the Altai people of China use actual skins for their ski skins--fur-on and attached so that the direction of the fur keeps them from sliding backward, just like modern skins.

Alternately, I wonder about cutting scales into wooden skis. I worry that the abrasive snow would wear them down rather quckly, but perhaps another material laid into the base--bone, or horn, or merely a harder wood such as our native Manzanita.

An even bigger concern is the bindings. Hide thongs may do in the rolling hills of inland Scandinavia, but here snow is rarely found away from steep slopes. I'm shaky enough with good steel Telemark bindings and space-age glass composite boots--anything floppier doesn't bear thinking about.

I think snowshoes may be more what's required, clumsy and inefficient as they are compared to skis. I've seen examples made by the native inhabitants of this area in local museums.

In either case, steam-bending wood is a daunting undertaking. From videos I've seen online, I can't really tell if it's easier or harder than it looks.

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