A Question for Loremasters

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Glaenry
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A Question for Loremasters

Postby Glaenry » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:10 am

Greetings again,
Working on posts to get feedback on kit, but for now I have a query, the answers of which may help me decide on my persona.
Is there mention of Rangers (not Dunedain specifically) as part of the population of Laketown/Dale/Erebor?
What I have in mind is a young man growing up in the aftermath of the Desolation of Smaug, who would have matured to adulthood around T.A. 2950, and as Dale and Laketown are being rebuilt, he ends up journeying with various other travellers, between the two cities, Erebor and the Iron Hills. Eventually he gets to know the land quite well and takes it upon himself to act as a sort of guide and protector from people making trips around the area. When the shadows of threats start rising once again from Dol Guldur, he decides to use his skill set to take a more active role in the defense of Erebor (i.e. ranging), and through his travels ends up working closely with the elves and dwarves, passing information, acting as a courier, etc. I picture this around 2951.

What do people think? Poke holes in it, I'm open to any and every bit of feedback. I'm wondering if im choosing a time almost too early for any real threats to be around Dol Guldur, since the white counsel I believe banished Sauron from there just a few years prior. Perhaps this persona would work better a little closer to the War for the Ring? My other worry is that a single loan ranger no associated with any group just cropping up from Dale might seem out of place?

This is why I ask whether anyone knows what Ranging Corps if any might be located around Erebor.

Thank you, my fellows
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Elleth
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Re: A Question for Loremasters

Postby Elleth » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:58 am

Hrm.

I think it quite possible such a life might have been lived around that time, though I don't know if such a man have been called a "ranger."
(Admittedly, we don't know what Westron word is used for the Dunedain of Eriador so who's to say if Butterbur and Bard would have used the same word to describe the scruffy wilds-roaming dangerous men of their acquaintance? )

Anyhow, I don't think there would be a "Ranging Corp" as such in that area, although certainly both Dale and Erebor no doubt have their scouts and road-guards.
I think the closest analogue that's familiar to what you're thinking would probably be a sort of "Natty Bumppo" figure loosely attached to the Laketown or Dalish militia / guard.

I do see in the timeline Sauron sends three Nazgul to Dol Guldur in 2951 and begins rebuilding Barad Dur the same year. However, we also know he's playing his hand quite closely during this time.

If we assume our man of Dale (scout? guide? ) is around 17-19 then he'd have a long life in mostly peaceful times, albeit with an increasing sense of dread and forboding.
He'd be in his late 60's when the War of the Ring finally broke out. Vindicated, but as Dalish men do not as I recall have Dunedain blood to speak of, he'd no longer likely be in much shape to do anything himself.

It's a fresh story I think, and quite a tale could be spun of such a life. Neat! :mrgreen:
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
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Darnokthemage
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Re: A Question for Loremasters

Postby Darnokthemage » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:32 pm

How wonderful that we are getting more Lake-Men and Bardings/Men of Dale! Be sure to check out my thread about the Lakemen in Tolkiens depiction of Esgaroth, the original drawings are fun to speculate around. Barding would be what refers to them around the WOTR.

About the datings i would say it is a bit too early, i would perhaps take it more towards the WOTR, or perhaps around the end of Bards reign as king?

I have never heard or read that the word ranger is ever used to describe or relate to Dale or the Bardings. This of course do not disprove thay it _could_ be used for Bardings, but i think it could be wise to choose other word for a similar concept. The language of Dlae is modeled on
anient Norse, so might be a good idea to look around in one of their dictionaries.

It really depends on _what_ side of rangering you want to portray, maybe a Barding bowman? A warrior of Dale? An adventurer, seeking to do great deeds? Maybe a Barding Warrior hired to guard the caravans of the dwarves, or patrol the river running?
We know the Kingdom od Dale was expanding and its trade was blooming. But we also know the Enemies of Dale was near the River Carnen, so a border patrol might make sense, a man hired to defend from skirmishes and travel up the River.

"... Then warning trumpets were suddenly sounded.... So it was that the Dragon did not find them quite unprepared. ... Every vessel in the town was filled with water, every warrior was armed, every arrow and dart was ready,"


"...At the twanging of the bows and the shrilling of the trumpets"


"...company of archers"

What is Clear is that the Men of Esgaroth were used to the art of Archery, and used it a great deal when fighting. Darts are also named, maybe this refers to javalins, used to ambush and fight boat-to-boat? Thhat is pure speculation tho.
"...The next morning early a company of spearmen was seen crossing the river, and marching up the valley. They bore with them the green banner of the Elvenking and the blue banner of the Lake, and they advanced until they stood right before the wall at the Gate..."

While the quote does not 100% say that some of the spearmen are from Laketown, it would be quite likely that there was. If one chooses to go with that route, it would be likely that the Warriors referenced in the earlier quotes were Spearmen, maybe armed sith darts too?

But both of those refer to military matters, and are old by the WOTR (though better then nothing.). But it shows how an adventurer or armed traveler may have armed themselves in the Northlands, with spear, dart and bow. Round shields are likely too, maybe like those we see in the hordes of Smaug in the drawing Tolkien made. Same with the trumpets like this one.Image



These are just some rambles, but i hope they can prove useful.

an other good idea is to read these articles talking about Dale and the North:
https://middle-earth.xenite.org/page/1/?s=Dale
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Udwin
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Re: A Question for Loremasters

Postby Udwin » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:08 pm

There's nothing in the text that directly mentions such a function in the area, but it is logical that any town had some sort of 'watch' or guardsmen. The language attests to it as well, as we know the Westron word "tud" meaning watch or guard, as well as "tudnas": "guard" (a body of men acting as guards).

Just out of curiosity, Glaenry, what has drawn you to pursue a Barding persona?
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Boffin, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA
Glaenry
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Re: A Question for Loremasters

Postby Glaenry » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:26 pm

I like the Northern, Norse, origin, everything in my kit aside from my sword which is an Oakeshott type 14 bastard sword, I think would fit a Barding. Pics to come of my soft kit. Perhaps that will greatly affect my chosen persona for sure. I do have a tunic in commission which might be more Dunedain or Elvish, than nordic.

My location might affect my persona as well. I don't know if there are equivalents of Middle Earth to America or the World. I keep seeing Yosemite being referred to as Rivendell and that makes me wonder where on the ME map Washington DC is.

To truly answer your question:

the reason I changed, since I was originally pursuing a Dunedain ranger, is because I just couldn't think of a good backstory that was simple and normal. Perhaps my perception of the Dunedain is off or something, but I found myself coming up with persona ideas that were too heroic or too tragic because the Dunedain are so mysterious. I thought if I changed to a different "race", something that seemed more common to me, I might have a better time with a simple, common backstory. As I thought about it, Gondor simply didn't interest me as much as Rohan or Dale did, and I don't own a horse, so all of the signs seemed to point towards a Barding.

The history and culture of Dale/Laketown/Erebor gripped me more as I delved into it and the Battle of Dale in 3018 was never something I had even heard of before actively looking around. The idea of this unsung war seemed romantic to me. Then I just sat at work brainstorming story ideas and that one came to me.
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Darnokthemage
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Re: A Question for Loremasters

Postby Darnokthemage » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:34 pm

Maybe Tudkarl would fit as a title? Karl is an old nirse word for man, seen in Huskarl or Ceorl (latinised). It is also likely the origin of the name Eorl, maybe being a Rohirimised version of Ceorl.

Some intersting notes about the Northmen from the hobbit:

"beside them came the men of the Lake with long swords"


"The talk was all of the trade that came and went on the waterways and the growth of the traffic on the river, as the roads out of the East towards Mirkwood vanished or fell into disuse; and of the bickerings of the Lake-men and the Wood-elves about the upkeep of the Forest River and the care of the banks."


"Except for occasional squabbles about river-tolls they were friends with the Wood-elves."


"and there was much shouting as well as the music of harps and of fiddles mixed up with it."


"They packed what they could on the ponies and the rest was made into a store under a tent,"

What a tent of the Northmen might look like:
Image

"The white oars dipped and splashed, and off they went north up the lake on the last stage of their long journey."



Beorn quotes:
"Jack-in-the-boxes!"
Beorn mentions jack-in-the-bixes, perhaps an old memory of Dalish toys?

"Troop of ponies? What were you-a travelling circus? Or were you carrying lots of goods? Or do you always call six a troop?"
Circus in Middle Earth? Well, doesnt strike me as unbelievable, entertainers and poets have always wandered around to seen employment.
Edit: Might mean more of an ancient curcus, as in Horse racing, sounds more Northman to me.
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Iodo
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Re: A Question for Loremasters

Postby Iodo » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:27 pm

There are some good ideas for a persona here, I think it would interesting to read about :P

Glaenry wrote:I'm wondering if im choosing a time almost too early for any real threats to be around Dol Guldur, since the white counsel I believe banished Sauron from there just a few years prior. Perhaps this persona would work better a little closer to the War for the Ring?

I imagine there to always be threats in middle earth no matter the time, even if they don't come from the Necromancer/Sauron, so there's room for such a person/job in any place at any time, especially near Erebor that has substantial wealth to attract unsavory characters, they may not be called a ranger but the local people would have a word for them, it sounds like what your looking at is the Lake-town equivalent of my persona, a Dwarf of Erebor in a similar job, I had the debate of what I might be called here: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4076&p=

Glaenry wrote:My other worry is that a single loan ranger no associated with any group just cropping up from Dale might seem out of place?

You may not be totally alone in this job, the land area is large enough for a small number based at Lake-town or Dale to be around and seldom cross paths, I'm not suggesting that there would necessarily be an organized "Ranging Corps" but it would certainly take more than one person to keep an eye on the land around, meaning that the people of Lake-town would be aware and possibly suspicious of you in a similar way to how the people of Bree treat the rangers
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.

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