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Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:36 am
by Thalion of Bree
Does anyone have particular thoughts on the existence of distilled spirits like whisky, brandy, or gin in Middle Earth? There’s plenty of mention of beer and wine, as well as the Elven miruvor. But what about the sort of thing you can set fire to? Perhaps equally important, is there any reason to believe there was no distilling of liquors?

Just a thought I had just now while mulling over some old Scottish Highland customs.

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:59 pm
by Elleth
Hrm... well there is the Brandywine* River, and the Brandybucks. While that's not sure evidence given Tolkien's English naming conventions**, it does seem to me at least plausible.
Likewise, I can't imagine that something like applejack (freeze-distilled cider) isn't known in the northern parts of Eriador, even if it has no particular name / social distinction from the regular stuff.

I don't know how common it is - as you say, there's never I think mention of people drinking distilled spirits recreationally. If I recall correctly, distilled grain spirits were mentioned in (I think) Irish monastic books as a medicinal some centuries before we see mention of them as whiskey.









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* ' "spirits distilled from other liquors" (especially wine), 1650s, abbreviation of brandy-wine (1620s) from Dutch brandewijn "burnt wine," earlier brand-wijn, so called because it is distilled (compare German cognate Branntwein and Czech palenka "brandy," from paliti "to burn"). '
https://www.etymonline.com/word/brandy# ... ne_v_15723

** cf "Cotton" - which if memory serves is akin to "cottage" or '"cottager" rather than the puffy plant used for fiber.

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:05 pm
by Thalion of Bree
Yeah, as far as I know, distilled spirits are much newer than beers and wines and other fermented drinks. But the existence of the Brandywine and the Brandybucks is interesting for this purpose.

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:24 pm
by Udwin
Maybe elsewhere in Eriador, but fairly definitively not for Hobbits:

HoME Vol 12: The Appendix on Languages: $58. Note. In cases where 'folk-etymology' has operated to alter older (Elvish) names into the appearance of names in the C.S. special difficulty may be met, since it is unlikely that suitable words will be found in modern English that will at once translate the C.S. name and yet also have some similarity in sound to the Elvish name. The chief example is that of the River Baranduin, the ancient boundary eastward of the Shire. This is an Elvish name composed of baran 'golden-brown' and duin '(large) river'. But it was by the Hobbits picturesquely perverted into Branduhim, signifying in their tongue 'foaming beer' (brand(u) 'foam'; him(a) 'beer'). I have imitated this by calling the river the Brandywine, similar in sound and a very possible 'corruption' of Baranduin, although the sense is not very closely similar. (There is, in fact, no evidence for the distillation of brandy in the Shire.)

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:49 pm
by Elleth
VERY nice catch Udwin! Thank you!

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:38 pm
by Thalion of Bree
Ahh, very good! I had forgotten about that. Thanks, Udwin.

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2022 1:57 pm
by Iodo
without further research I can't say for sure, but even if I ignore the naming of the Brandywine river I am finding it very hard to believe that Hobbits would smoke a pipe and not have drinks like brandy

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:58 pm
by Togon
Iodo, I figured Dwarves would have much in the way of distilling spirits. I am currently rereading the books, starting with The Hobbit, so I'll post if I find some more evidence.

What about the Uruk-Hai liqour they give to Merry and Pippin, does that count? Somehow it gives energy rather than make one drunk. Or maybe it makes you so drunk you don't notice your tiredness? Thats all I could think of off hand.

It seems a lot of liqours are made from new-world materials: corn, potatoes, sugar cane, etc. We know potatoes exist since you boil em, mash em, and stick em in a stew. Maybe vodka could exist. Perhaps alcohol made from barley, like shochu. I don't think corn is mentioned. I think they might have sugar in The Shire, so perhaps rum could exist. For things like brandy, could it exist? I mean, you just distill wine, right?

What was in Gandalf's flask? This interests me. I usually carry a flask of whiskey in my satchel, but getting something more lore accurate would be nice. The Marine Corps was born in a bar, after all.

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:54 pm
by Eofor
Togon wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:58 pm For things like brandy, could it exist? I mean, you just distill wine, right?
Ahhhh the history of alcohol! One of my favourite topics.

The earliest records of distillation in Europe are the works of Taddeo Alderotti an Italian physician who in the 13th century recorded a method for concentrating alcohol through distillation. It's highly likely that distillation originated much earlier in the Islamic empire and spread to Europe.

Ale or beer was traditionally brewed at home for personal use and it wasn't until the introduction of hops that it became a viable commercial product. Now we know that Bilbo had barrels on tap in bag end (as well as a wine cellar) so it's safe to say that at least in Hobbiton, brewing and alcohol production was likely at a Middle Ages level and still using environmental yeasts.

Naturally occurring yeasts can take mead or wine up to around 20% alcohol before dying off, Cider with natural yeast can go to around 12% but some champagne yeast and sugar will kick it higher but one does wonder what sort of sugars and yeast would have been available to the denizens of Arda.
I think that perhaps we need to take our modern filter off this one and consider that to our ancestors a 15% mead or cider was considered a hard drink. In fact the first use of the word cider is in Middle English in biblical use as sicer or ciser which means strong liquor. Hell, you can even fractional distill cider up to around 40% if you're brave enough (Freezing the fermenting cider and removing the crystalised water to leave concentrated alcohol behind)

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:50 pm
by Togon
Eofor to the rescue! I love me some cider and the distilled cider is intriguing. I would very much like to try to make some one day once we get more settled in. That makes sense about the strength of ancient alcohol. Now I know why I never see anything non-distilled stronger than a little over 20%. I mean sake brought down Yamato no Orochi and the strongest ive seen is about 24%. What about dragons? There we go!

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:30 pm
by Iodo
I came across this while browsing The Hobbit, maybe it is of some interest???

The Hobbit, Barrels out of Bond wrote:for the Wood-elves, and especially there king, were very fond of wine, though no vines grew in those parts. The wine, and other goods, were brought from far away, from there kinsfolk in the south, or from the vineyard of Men in distant lands.
The Hobbit, Barrels out of Bond wrote:"Now come with me", he said, "and taste the new wine that has just come in... ...I shall be hard at work tonight... ...so let us have a drink first to help the labour."
The Hobbit, Barrels out of Bond wrote:they entered a small cellar and sat down at a small table on which two large flagons were set. Soon they began to drink and laugh merrily... ...It must be potent wine to make a wood-elf drowsy; but this wine, it would seem, was the heady vintage of the great gardens of Dorwindon... ...for the kings feasts only, and for smaller bowls not for the butler's great flagons

Giving this some thought: Elves don't seem to get drunk easily, and these two were fast asleep enough for Bilbo to steal there keys, and they had planned to do some work afterwards so it clearly took even them by surprise, it was obviously no ordinary wine. So the question is if this wine was 20% (the usual limit before the yeast is killed), assuming a "flagon" contains about a pint (how big a flagon would be is unknown?) a bit of guess work here; I do not think that is enough to send a wood-elf to sleep. So did they get carried away and have several top-ups, or was (as I have always imagined on reading this passage) it fortified in some way?

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:53 pm
by Eofor
Togon wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:50 pm I would very much like to try to make some one day once we get more settled in.
If you do then please take care and do a bit of reading as the freeze distillation process removes less impurities than steam and so your apple jack could wind up being full of nasties.

Never done it myself so no insights on how to do it properly.

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:37 pm
by Elleth
Coincidentally, Tudor Monastic Farm popped up on youTube's recommendations for me this morning, and there's a neat little piece on the distillation of brandy from wine in the Tudor era -

https://youtu.be/3iGhuzXbdJM?t=3004

... Also, I assume we all know this, but just in case - for those of us in the US at least, this is illegal for us without the right paperwork. Home brewing we can do, home distillation no. I don't think anyone's been busted for making the stuff for home use at least in recent decades, but personally, it's not a bear I care to taunt.

(I've heard rumblings that hobbyists are agitating for small-scale home distillation to be legalized, but don't know how much progress they've made)

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:42 pm
by Erfaron
Elleth wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:37 pm Coincidentally, Tudor Monastic Farm popped up on youTube's recommendations for me this morning, and there's a neat little piece on the distillation of brandy from wine in the Tudor era -

https://youtu.be/3iGhuzXbdJM?t=3004

... Also, I assume we all know this, but just in case - for those of us in the US at least, this is illegal for us without the right paperwork. Home brewing we can do, home distillation no. I don't think anyone's been busted for making the stuff for home use at least in recent decades, but personally, it's not a bear I care to taunt.

(I've heard rumblings that hobbyists are agitating for small-scale home distillation to be legalized, but don't know how much progress they've made)
You can distill in America, you just cannot sell it. One work around I know a few people do for moonshine is they give gifts for people who donate materials and supplies. Probably won’t actually work if they got busted, but technically not illegal.

Re: Hard drinks in Middle Earth

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:05 am
by Elleth
While that may be de facto true for those who never "attract the eye of Sauron" as it were - I'm afraid that is not the opinion of the United States government:
While individuals of legal drinking age may produce wine or beer at home for personal or family use, Federal law strictly prohibits individuals from producing distilled spirits at home (see 26 United States Code (U.S.C.) 5042(a)(2) and 5053(e)). Producing distilled spirits at any place other than a TTB-qualified distilled spirits plant can expose you to Federal charges for serious offenses and lead to consequences including, but not necessarily limited to, the following...
https://www.ttb.gov/distilled-spirits/p ... distilling
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5601

I am sure there are any number of people out there who've done it for years with no problems. I've heard but not verified that small time folk who aren't selling practically never get into trouble for their distilling alone, but if they get into other trouble, the powers that be are happy to throw on the extra charges.

Personally, I think the law is dumb... but I'm not about to break it.