Middle Earth Ranger Forum

Okay, so since I am currently entertaining the idea of making my persona of mixed Dúnedain/Breelander descent, I have started wondering a bit about the naming conventions of Humans in the Breelands, and I wanted to pick the brains of some folks here who might be better informed than I am.
Most of the names I remember being mentioned in Bree tend to be derived from relatively modern English names, like Tom, Bob, Bill, Mat, etc. Then there are some slightly odd ones, like Barliman and Rowlie - but these too seem at least based on common elements and/or sounds found in modern English words and names. In some ways this seems to follow similar ideas to certain Hobbit names, which we know from the Professor’s other writings were actually stand-ins or rough translations for their ACTUAL Westron names, which in reality sound much different. So would I be right to assume the names of the Bree Men would likely be similarly translated/interpreted in the text? And if so, could we venture any guesses on some of the other names that might be plausible for people living in and around the Breelands?

I mainly ask because I’m wondering if I could find something that might fit me and my own persona - especially if it’s similar or related to my actual name, Michael - but I’m also just interested in the entire subject as a whole.

I am away from my books but if I recall correctly most of the Breelanders had horticultural surnames? Harry Goatleaf, Matt Heathertoes, and Bill Ferny spring to mind.

Actually, thanks to a digital copy I found the passage just now.

The Men of Bree seemed all to have rather botanical (and to the Shire-folk rather odd) names, like Rushlight, Goatleaf, Heather toes, Appledore, Thistlewool and Ferny (not to mention Butterbur).

Some of the hobbits had similar names. The Mugworts, for instance, seemed numerous. But most of them had natural names, such as Banks, Brockhouse, Longholes, Sandheaver, and Tunnelly, many of which were used in the Shire. There were several Underhills from Saddle, and as they could not imagine sharing a name without being related, they took Frodo to their hearts as a long-lost cousin

So perhaps a delve into some English botanical books may be your next step?

Our sample of named Bree-men is pretty small:
Bill Ferny
Harry Goatleaf
Mat (with one T) Heathertoes
Rowlie Appledore
Tom Pickthorn
Bob (or is he a hobbit??)
Barliman Butterbur

We know Barliman Butterbur is translated from the Westron 'Barabatta Zilbirâpha', so presumably the others are as well. We also know that many of the simple Hobbit names (which are represented in Bree-men) are shortened forms of Westron names:

"$50. It will be observed that I have [rarely] used Scriptural names or names of Hebraic origin to represent Hobbit-names. There is nothing in Hobbit lore or history that corresponds [added: closely] to this element in our names. Bildad, a name occurring among the Bolgers, is an accidental resemblance; it is a genuine Hobbit name which I have left unaltered. Other abbreviations like Tom and Mat I have also often left unchanged. Many such monosyllables were current in the Shire, but were the shortenings of genuine Hobbit names. For instance Tom of Tomacca, Tomburan; Mat of Mattalic; Bill (Bil) of Bildad (Bildat), Bilcuzal, or any of the numerous names ending in -bil, -mil, as Arambil. Farmer Cotton's full name was in fact Tomacca Lothran.(37) [Added: Tobias (Hornblower) is an exception. I have used this name because the resemblance of the real Hobbit-name Tobi was so close, and it seemed inevitable to translate Zara-tobi by 'Old Toby'; no other name could be found to fit so well." (HoMe 12, pt 1--appendices drafts)

Even though they're Men, the prevalence of hobbit-style names in Bree is likely due to the fact that in the early drafts Bree was not a town of mixed Big and Little folk, but was simply another purely hobbit town. Unfortunately, Michael is so non-English etymologically (Hebrew->Latin->Old French->Middle English) that I'm afraid I don't know where it would fit into this scheme. Perhaps you could pull some old English census records and see if there are any names that jump out or which could be cut down? Pair that with something botanical and you'd probably be good to go.

Udwin wrote: ↑Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:43 pm
Even though they're Men, the prevalence of hobbit-style names in Bree is likely due to the fact that in the early drafts Bree was not a town of mixed Big and Little folk, but was simply another purely hobbit town. Unfortunately, Michael is so non-English etymologically (Hebrew->Latin->Old French->Middle English) that I'm afraid I don't know where it would fit into this scheme. Perhaps you could pull some old English census records and see if there are any names that jump out or which could be cut down? Pair that with something botanical and you'd probably be good to go.

Non-English derivation yes, but known and used. Michael is* carved on the Coffin of St. Cuthbert.


Also there Michel Delving, the town in the Shire. Michel being derived from the Saxon 'micel' --> big.

Huh... so apparently Sheridan is ultimately derived from the Irish, Sirideáin, which translates to 'searcher' (i.e. Ranger?).





* was? It's attested in 19th c. books, but not listed in current inscriptions on the coffin.

caedmon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:43 pm Non-English derivation yes, but known and used. Michael is* carved on the Coffin of St. Cuthbert.

Also there Michel Delving, the town in the Shire. Michel being derived from the Saxon 'micel' --> big.

* was? It's attested in 19th c. books, but not listed in current inscriptions on the coffin.

Huh, interesting! I always figured that the spelling of the chief town of the Shire and the name Michael was just coincidental...as you say, it probably would've been pronounced same as Saxon micel (same as Michael but with a short i)
Also, anyone else find it entertaining that both Michel Delving and the main Took settlement (Great Smials) both essentially translate to 'Big Hole'? The westron for Khazad-dum (~Phurunargian?) has a similar meaning, too.

caedmon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:43 pm Non-English derivation yes, but known and used. Michael is* carved on the Coffin of St. Cuthbert.

* was? It's attested in 19th c. books, but not listed in current inscriptions on the coffin.

Are you looking for a name inscription? The archangels Michael and Gabriel are depicted on one end so that could be the reference to the name in the 19thc texts.

Off the top of my head there is also the 11th century Michael Chapel at Iona and the monastery on St Michaels Mount in the UK which was founded by Edward the confessor.

But other references are not common, it's not an Anglo Saxon name but I imagine has Celtic and Norman roots.

Just popping in here to mention that I’m going to address some of this over in my persona-building thread, because I have indeed found some interesting info that I think it swaying me in terms of names!
http://middleearthrangers.org/forum/vie ... hp?p=53766