"Rolling" with the shield

[R.D.Metcalf]

In sparring today I had what might not be such an original thought that added a new dimension to my offensive use of the shield, attacking the sword arm with the rim of the shield. My man was chambering a cut, always a bad idea, when I passed in rimmed his sword arm and thrust behind his shield all in a circular/rolling motion.

We tried several different combinations of this as well as counters and even some joint manipulations using the shield rim to trap the sword arm, while delivering a blow with the pommel of the sword....Its hard to explain in detail but based on our experiments it would not be hard to break a mans arm and run him through in short order, with these methods. As with all martial arts control is vital, also we don not have much in the way of safety equipment, so we are not practising at speed...However "rolling with the sheild" as we call it, if done with speed and force would be a brutally effective weapon in a sword mans arsenal.

The technique relies on the thrust either over or under your mans shield, it also relies on either jamming his attack,obliquely passing forward or intercepting it, again by obliquely passing forward, and essentially bashing his arm with the sheild rim, then either quickly binding his shield with your own, or trapping the arm to throw your man and execute your will upon him, with the pommel, point or edge, I prefer the point. Again this is brutal combative swordplay so if you try this please respect your training partner.

[Eledhwen]

Common tactic in round shield use. Used to be able to use it in the SCA a long time ago..I used it all the time. I still use a variant of it to keep the opponent's weapon effectively useless while I gut them with a shortsword.

A lot of people overlook the offensive nature of a good round shield..or any shield for that matter..mainly because safety rules often outlaw any kind of striking or body contact with the shield edge. Driving the edge into the joint of the elbow, the face, the throat, or even down into the knee produces some ugly results.

A shield, especially the smaller round shields, are outstanding second weapons. I still use mine to punch block, press, hook, and bind the hilt of weapons. Doesn't work so well with a center grip unless you also have a forearm loop to stabilize it. Larger shields like the Roman scutum can smash insteps, smash people's faces and what have you.

The shield is as much a weapon as a defensive device..in the hands of a skilled user very, very dangerous.

Eledhwen

[R.D.Metcalf]

"Doesn't work so well with a center grip unless you also have a forearm loop to stabilize it"


Center grips are precisely what we use

[Beornmann]

The shield is very offensive. Watch the "Deadliest Warrior" Sparton vs. Ninja episdode on Spike. The impact a shield edge has on a target is nasty.

These sites have some great instructions.
Hurstwic, a Viling reanactment group

Bellatrix, SCA.

[R.D.Metcalf]

The hurstwic plays we have practiced before, I was surprised by the SCA plays, being an eclectic Sword man I've bounced between the philosophies of Stephen Hand, Terry Brown, Christian Tobler et al. I never gave too much thought to SCA, but some of their plays are quite good

[Eledhwen]

I used to use a standard grip and forearm strap..so the fist was about four inches from the rim. Good for very close, tight work. Later I worked with pure center grips, both the large Norse type and the Roman and other sorts. After a while I added a forearm loop to my center grip rounds...I could still go just center grip, but I could also slip the arm through the loop. The half of the shield jutting out beyond my hand in the center proved to be an absolutely awesome tool..and finding out the Britons indeed used that style just sweetened it.

Either going shield wall, in which case half of each shield overlaps the one next to it, or in single combat where the edge becomes a reach weapon and defensive tool, even with the smaller 24" rounds, the method works a charm. Best I've ever found. And I use it still. I've been doing various forms of combat for more than 30 years...and once I found this one I stayed with it.

Granted, I use a shortsword with it which, historically speaking, is a little anachronistic, but it works, boy howdy does it.

Round shield and shortsword. SCA, non-SCA rattan, wooden weapons, etc. No steel though, not like the WMA stuff some of you lads do.

Lots of fun though, lots and lots of fun.

Eledhwen

[R.D.Metcalf]

Cool stuff, Eledhwen! I use a 22" dia. center grip sheild I made, the only strap I use is the guige strap. I sometimes do solo drills with a short sword, I aquired Brughild, made by MAD Dwarf Workshop on the SFI classifieds, She handles great but obviously I cant use her for anything but solo drills as she is a sharp girl...a very sharp girl

I need to make a larger war shield, but the smaller diameter is actually accurate for the early Anglo-Saxon period and is a heck of alot better for grappling techniques. At any rate I'm currently just now getting armoured *finally* so I can begin to practice at speed without risking getting any number injuries So any tips suggestions etc. I'm more than willing to listen to someone who has actually played at speed, like yourself

[Beornmann]

I never gave too much thought to SCA, but some of their plays are quite good

Old school SCA heavy fighting could be varied and off-beam, depending on to who you were talking. Some were excellant teachers and student of the arts. On the other hand, a lot of grunt, stick-jock fighters imagined him/herself a master of the sword and professed their knowledge of ancient lore. Clements was (not sure if he still is) a big detractor.

Some techniques, such as draw cuts, are not played. Also, we do not grapple nor use the shields offensively. However, in the last several years, he have many avenues for historical research. There is Historical Fighting under our Arts and Sciences studies. I have seen more and more WMA-SCA cross-over. Bob Charron started in the SCA; Brian Price and others teach classes at Pennsic and I saw him on the battlefield, also. I met Christian Tobler at Brian's stall for Chivalry Bookshelf, a few years back. I have heard Greg Mele trains some folks out near Chicago. We have several tournaments at Pennsic with modifed rules, most notably the Historical Combatseries.

It's worth a look to see if it's a good fit for each you individually.

[Eledhwen]

Both in CAID and here in the East I surely do; presses, hooks, hilt binds, 'punch' blocks to the sword (more of a short, controlled thrusting or sweeping motion than a true punch), etc. Not a fully functional offense no; we don't get to hit *people* with the shield...and most assuredly can't hit them with the edge...or the boss. Shield to sword or shield to shield only. I've played in Non-SCA battles using (mostly) SCA rules where we could indeed hit with the boss but not the edge...it changes dynamics a lot.

Still, hooks, presses, binds, all are offensive movements. No draw cuts though, unfortunately. One reason I use a shortsword (other than that I enjoy being literally on top of my opponent..and I'm fast enough to stay there).

I've fought round shield and shortsword in the SCA for more than 25 years. They haven't stopped the (somewhat) watered down offensive use of the shield so far; at least nowhere I've been. *knocks on wood*

One has to be careful though; there are an increasing number of people who are more than happy to complain about such things these days. Supposedly such tactics are unsafe in their minds...and coincidentally give an unfair advantage to the user. Yeah right. Anyway, one must be careful.

Shields are indeed offensive weapons...the smaller sort at the least. Love 'em to death I does. I've been doing this too long...LOL

Eledhwen

[R.D.Metcalf]

Well my opinion is that working at speed is soimetimes possible and sometimes not, provided the goal is not to destroy your training partner. LOL. I think the SCA is interesting for the simple reason in alot of cases "back in the day" some very effective techniques evolved without the benefit of Fechtbuchs much the same way the techniques we see in the fechtbuchs themselves evolved.

Historical manuscripts do however provide more structure, which makes it easier to compartmentalize techniques, that being said however no two people will fence the same way everyone will have their own spin on techniques and a good fighter will develop their own "tricks" independently though complimentary to they've been taught.

One reason I tend to have a love/hate relationship mainstream WMA is that it seems to be going the way of Asian MA as seen in the 70's "my karate is better than your karate" Therefore I'll take advantage of the resources and learn from them but I'll keep my own counsel as to how I supplement that. That said I dont want this to be a blanket statement as it doesnt reflect all of them, but reading some of the MyArmoury threads, I'm singurlarly unimpressed by the closed mindedness of some fellow practicioners. If it works it should be integrated, if it doesnt discard it, egos have no place in the equation.

[Beornmann]

I'm singurlarly unimpressed by the closed mindedness of some fellow practicioners. If it works it should be integrated, if it doesnt discard it, egos have no place in the equation.

My thoughts also. I have often said about folks, "You are either cool to be around or you're not. If not, I won't be around."

[Greg]

I sometimes do solo drills with a short sword, I aquired Brughild, made by MAD Dwarf Workshop on the SFI classifieds, She handles great but obviously I cant use her for anything but solo drills as she is a sharp girl...a very sharp girl

A few questions, R.D....

For starters, do you have any pictures of Brug Hild other than the ones on the MDW website? She's perty!

Next...what short sword drills are you doing? Do you have any links or referrals to text? Pictures?

Lastly, could you direct me to some location where I could better understand what you're doing with your sheild here in this "rolling" maneuver? I'm still relatively new to studying WMA, so terminology such as "Chambering a Cut" and such are rather foreign still.

Thanks in advance for any and all info you're able to provide.

[R.D.Metcalf]

Greg,

Rolling with the shield is a variation of what Stepehen Hand calls a shield knock in his book 'Medieval Sword and shield' its available from chivalry bookshelf and while some of the interpetations have changed this is a good volume to have. Mr. Hand explains things alot better than i do

[Greg]

Cool beans; thanks!