Thoughts on Boar Spears?

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Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by caedmon »

Thinking of Breeish kit, and I’m kinda considering making an antler toggle boar spear. Has anyone got thoughts or experience on these beasts?
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Cimrandir »

Being far from an expert on spears and spear use, I hesitate to say much but as I understand it, boar spears were specifically for boar and not used in combat. Given that Bree is not a war-zone, I suspect you're okay with this and plan for it to be used in a hunting context. Given that boars are ferocious animals that can and will push themselves further down a spear to get to the one holding it, I would ensure that the antler is both thick and sturdy as well as firmly attached. I might go one step further and say that maybe the lugs might benefit from being made of iron and the antler being attached as a scale like in a knife handle. Dunno how well that would work or if it would look as nice as an antler knife handle. I'm sure others more knowledgeable than I will chime in soon. Oh Eofor?
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Erfaron »

My current kit includes a bamboo shafted spear, has a sog spirit as the spearhead, it’s mainly a walking stick with the advantage of self defense or some hunting, but a full boar spear I think fits into a Bree lander kit wonderfully
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Eofor »

Okay so quick question before I elaborate - Are you looking at a traditional style boar spear for hunting or simply a winged spear for appearance?
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Jack »

caedmon wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:51 am Has anyone got thoughts or experience on these beasts?
We dont have many eurasian boar in my area but there is no shortage of feral hogs (interestingly enough both are considered Sus scrofa taxonomically despite obvious morphological differences)
Ive been fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to hunt a rice paddy with a boar spear (albeit one with conventional forged lugs and not an antler toggle/ring) on 3 occasions.
Its an insane adrenaline rush and all your other senses get cranked up to 11 because all you can really see is the rice stalks in front of you.

On one of those occasions a friend got charged and didnt have enough time to react so he barely stuck the hog without enough force to penetrate deeply and before he could really plant himself. As a result he got knocked down and pushed back for several yards before we could assist.
I like to think the the lugs kept the hog a shaft's length away throughout the ordeal and no doubt kept him from getting gored while in that very vulnerable position.

Anywho all that is to say they are very strong with a low center of gravity so make sure your piece of antler you make the toggle from is up to the task and best of luck if you intend to hunt with it.

I have pictures from that time in my old laptop, if i can find it and get the files off that dead laptop's hard drive I'll come back and post them for sure.

edit: Wait by "beasts" did you mean the boars or the spear? probably should have asked first lol
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Cimrandir »

Jack wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:16 amI have pictures from that time in my old laptop, if i can find it and get the files off that dead laptop's hard drive I'll come back and post them for sure.
I absolutely want to see those photos if you dig them up. It's an impressive feat to go after feral pigs with nothing more than a pointy stick. I've stumbled across plenty of sounders during my fieldwork and they scare the piss outta me each time. Snakes? Fine. Coyotes? Cute! Hogs? Heck no. They're mean and they'll go after you at the drop of a hat.
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Cimrandir »

Cimrandir wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:45 pmBeing far from an expert on spears and spear use, I hesitate to say much but as I understand it, boar spears were specifically for boar and not used in combat. Given that Bree is not a war-zone, I suspect you're okay with this and plan for it to be used in a hunting context.
Quoting myself to tell myself that I am wrong.

From Thomas Vlasaty's excellent blog Projekt Forlǫg -
Nevetherless, the wings are specifically formed in order to serve other functions of combat nature too – hooking, weapon deflection, cover etc. Some wings have a pointy tip and can be thus used as an extension of the harmful part of the spear while cutting, or they could had been provided support to additional blades that were attached to the spearhead, increasing the attack surface of the spear, such as in the case of Holy spear from Vienna (Paulsen 1969).

The wings were undoubtedly also used for easier sheath fixation. It is simply a practical feature, which increases the weapon’s effectiveness and which also gained a symbolic value (Hjardar – Vike 2011: 177). Winged spears are usually used in the context of hunting, for which they were certainly used since the Roman Era up to Modern history (Fuglesang 1980: 136-140; Oehrl 2013: Attachment), although it is certain that at least during the Early medieval period, they also found use in military conflicts, as supported by various relevant iconography.

....

Should we accept this fact, it would allow us to move farther in some theses. During the combat, where the spears were predominant – which was basically common for most, if not all European battlefields in the Early Middle Ages – the wings on spearheads represent an advantage and addition that provides a higher performance. We specifically consider these three cases:

There is a correlation between height of the wings, width of the blade and thickness of the shaft. Width of the wings is always equal to or higher than width of the blade – spears with narrow blade will have short wings, spears with wide blade on the other hand have taller wings. Majority of Frankish, Polish and Croatian finds (and possibly even other countries for which we have no corpuses) commonly have inner diameter of the socket between 25 and 36 mm, the wings span 59-90 mm and their height is 17-34 mm (Demo 2010; Westphal 2002; Sankiewicz – Wyrwa 2018: 208). This ratio indicates that the wings span is not random but is on the contrary chosen purposely to prevent the spearhead from penetrating further. It seems likely that almost all the wings (except of type 2C wings, that is with the wing’s upper side being convexly curved in relation to the wing placement) could easily be used to deflecting opponent’s spear towards ground – basically stopping a counterattack by swift and precise stroke to opponent’s spear’s socket or shaft. Especially spears with very tall wings or type 1B wings, plus some of the type 2B wings suggest that they were constructed towards as best manipulation with opponent’s spear or another weapon, as possible.

For a long time, there has been an argument amongst the reenactors regarding the possibility of using the wings for hooking, although so far there is no conclusive evidence. There are several wing types (2C, 3C, 4C, 4D, 4F) that could by design be used for hooking, be it a shield or a weapon. This tactic can provide an important practical advantage. It is possible that also the types 6B and 6I could be used similarly. In the Gull-Þóris saga (chapter 10), there is a reference on an attempt of hooking a shield with a spear.

Third often discussed question, whether the spear wings can be used for hacking, can be supported. A successful hit by basically any wing type would have a devastating effect, with spears having 4A, 4C, 4G, 5A, 5B, 5E, 6C, 6E and 6G features performing the best.


Typology of Spearhead Wings (link)


Edit - I found this blog post detailing a modern historical boar hunt. Pretty cool account of what goes into killing a feral hog in the old way - A Modern Boar Hunt and it's Implications for Sword Fighting (link)
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Elleth »

Is hog hunting with spears/knives generally done with dogs as drivers?


... if so, I imagine that has implications for our hypothetical hunter from Bree, yes? Perhaps implies he lives a bit outside of town proper, to have room for all the critters? (And related, a yard full of hug-hunting beasts isn't the worst idea if one lives outside the walls)
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Cimrandir »

Elleth wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:39 pm Is hog hunting with spears/knives generally done with dogs as drivers?


... if so, I imagine that has implications for our hypothetical hunter from Bree, yes? Perhaps implies he lives a bit outside of town proper, to have room for all the critters? (And related, a yard full of hug-hunting beasts isn't the worst idea if one lives outside the walls)
I believe so, yes.

Medieval boar hunting dog armor -
C0C61605-E7FB-4F8C-9A56-E57B5CE4BE70.jpeg
C0C61605-E7FB-4F8C-9A56-E57B5CE4BE70.jpeg (48.45 KiB) Viewed 3834 times
Modern boar hunting dog armor -
1E96A03F-EF49-477D-A04D-E9A79B49127A.jpeg
1E96A03F-EF49-477D-A04D-E9A79B49127A.jpeg (158.39 KiB) Viewed 3834 times
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Iodo »

Cimrandir wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:04 pm Hogs? Heck no. They're mean and they'll go after you at the drop of a hat.


It's not often that I can contribute to online discussions about dangerous animals because there aren't really any in the UK, but this I can agree with, about five years ago I was charged by three wild boar in the forest of Dean, the only thing to do was to climb into a tree, and I realize I was very lucky that there was a climbable tree close enough or it could have been nasty, then I had to wait for two hours for the beasts to wander off

The locals couldn't understand that this had happened because according to them the wild boar in the forest of Dean are quite tame and use to people, hence you see photo's like this:


Image


But as it turns out this might be how they behave towards people on walking trails where they know there are people, but when you walk off the track for a little while they become quite a danger
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Elleth »

Maybe Old Man Willow just told them they have to keep those pesky children of men on the trails and away from decent tree-folk. :mrgreen:
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by ForgeCorvus »

You're thinking about one like this?
Image

Its a handy 'civilian' style of spear, and that toggle is ideal if you need to fight anything strong and determined to get you no matter the cost.

Antler is tough stuff, the Neolithic flint miners used picks made from it to break up the chalk.
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Iodo »

Elleth wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:23 am Maybe Old Man Willow just told them they have to keep those pesky children of men on the trails and away from decent tree-folk. :mrgreen:

LOL :P

but alas I wasn't a child, I was already a member of this forum! it was actually one of my first forest outings in kit
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Jack »

Iodo wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:31 am It's not often that I can contribute to online discussions about dangerous animals because there aren't really any in the UK, but this I can agree with, about five years ago I was charged by three wild boar in the forest of Dean, the only thing to do was to climb into a tree, and I realize I was very lucky that there was a climbable tree close enough or it could have been nasty, then I had to wait for two hours for the beasts to wander off

The locals couldn't understand that this had happened because according to them the wild boar in the forest of Dean are quite tame and use to people, hence you see photo's like this:


Image


But as it turns out this might be how they behave towards people on walking trails where they know there are people, but when you walk off the track for a little while they become quite a danger
Oh wow glad you made it out unscathed and un-eaten, I say the latter without an ounce of hyperbole because they definitely couldve.

Shame the locals arent aware that even a habituated animal is still unpredictable.
But its not the least bit surprising, most animals have three circles or "zones" around them determined by their sensory range and temperment.

The outer circle is a safe zone where you are detected but you're far enough away to not be of concern

The more habituated the animal is to humans the larger this zone is proportionately within the overall sensory range which can actually cause problems because it also shrinks the next circle, the escape zone or the treshold where most animals will choose to move along if youre too close

Last is the inner circle around the animal or the defense zone, its usually surprised or cornered animals that end up with someone in this zone and hogs are bad about that particularly old ones that get cataracts in their eyes & tick/mite infestations or scar tissue in the ear canals which get calloused and close over so they become easily startled and quick to charge because their safe and escape zones shrink with their sensory range. Ive also walked right up on hogs too preoccupied feeding on mushrooms to notice me and make use of their escape zone.

I wonder if the disparity between local perception on trail and your experience off trail came from the difference in terrain or vegetation density on and off trail changing their sensory range and thus their "zones"?

Anyway enough rambling but like i said, I'm glad you made it out ok and had that tree to climb, Iodo.

Edit: also, its a shame you weren't in the company of a wizard who could light some pinecones with flames of red, blue, and green to hurl at those hogs :P
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Re: Thoughts on Boar Spears?

Post by Iodo »

Hmmm... interesting, I didn't know this but my theory was always that they were territorial and I had wandered into there territory or something?
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