Middle-earth material culture resource

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Udwin
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Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Udwin »

I had brought this up awhile back on the Middle-earth Reenactment Society fb page, but since discussion of MERWiki content is currently active, I thought I'd mention it here too.
If you've never been, I highly suggest checking out the 18th Century Material Culture Resource Center. Sometime soonish, I would really like to tackle the creation of something similar, only with a Middle-earth focus for our purposes here - hosted on the MERWiki (?), it could be a one-stop source for references (text and visual) of various subjects in Tolkien's works. I think it would be an excellent way to support book-accurate impressions for both new and old members alike.

The big question is--how could this be implemented? Right now all I have is a whole bunch of raw notes, colorcoded and arranged by source. Would slideshows like the 18thCMCRC be effective, given that much of the information is textual?
The next question is--how would this be organized? My notes are currently broken down by:
-Clothing/garments
(it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to make a jewelry category)
-Other Material Culture--things like cups, lanterns, water-bottles, &c.
-Weapons & armor/warfare & tactics
-Food & drink
-Architecture
-Economics/livelihood--this includes references to natural resources and materials in given areas
-Social relations/customs
-Travel & transport

(It may be beyond our capabilities right now, but it would be supercool to have a bunch of fields you could 'check' that would refine the info displayed.)

Thoughts?
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
Straelbora
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Straelbora »

I think it would be a great idea.

One thing that would have to be decided is how much 'outside' influences would be allowed. It sometimes bothers me when I see people doing Tolkein cosplay and acting as if the images from the Peter Jackson films are definitive.

But what do you accept and reject? I'm of an age where the Hildebrandt brothers, and later, Alan Lee, provided the first images of Middle-earth to me. Then, the Rankin-Bass "Hobbit." Later came Bakshi's film. I can't deny that I'm in awe at the wonderful job Weta did with 'defining' the Art Nouveau with hints of medieval Scandinavia for the Elves, the equine-centric Anglo-Saxon world of Rohan, the geometric look of the Dwarves, etc. But I don't want to be married to them.

Then, there's the 'chronology' problem. The Rohirrim are essentially the Angles and Saxons without boats. But Hobbits have creature comforts no out of place in late 1800s England.
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Greg
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Greg »

I think the big thing here, Straelbora, would be making it clear that anything listed has been directly sourced from the books, so any allowances (which are to be expected for many impressions, since not all cultures are fully fleshed out in the books) made by forumites/wiki-posted complete personas would not find their ways onto the list. For example, the two in-book quotes that mention Surcoats would, naturally, find themselves on the list in Clothing, but my lengthy notes making them plausible in 3rd age Arnor wouldn't be listed there.

I am 100% on board with making this happen. If possible, we should come up with a labeling system (even just some text abbreviations would work) to denote what culture and age (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th) of middle earth each reference comes from, so if we, say had a list of clothing, Surcoats would be labeled "Surcoat Quote Here". 3A, G (3rd Age, Gondor) or something to that extent. Would that alleviate your concerns?

Udwin, let's make it happen. Our wiki is [should be] the best possible place for an exhaustive database like that.

Do you have a section you'd like to get started on? Want to assign me a topic to work on, etc?
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Urthgard »

The 18thCMCRC is a great site and awesome historical resource. What you are proposing is wonderfully ambitious and could be an incredible resource as well. I think that the most difficult challenge would be in drawing boundary lines of what it should not include. Tolkien's world is obviously massive. What do you envision those boundaries to be in the context of a Ranger based Forum? Don't get me wrong, I'm in. Just curious of where not to go with it.
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Peter Remling
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Peter Remling »

Urthgard wrote: What do you envision those boundaries to be in the context of a Ranger based Forum? Don't get me wrong, I'm in. Just curious of where not to go with it.
I believe that they are discussing putting this info in the Middle Earth Wiki, so it wouldn't be Ranger exclusive.
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Udwin »

Yes! I'm glad to have folks on board with this. Can anybody think of a catchy name for this section of the wiki?

I'd like it to deal exclusively with Tolkien's works--both text and illustrations (of which there are only a few, and these are mostly landscapes of specific environments)--though I totally understand your point, Straelbora; I get completely frustrated on pintrest when I see that 90% of the photos tagged 'Tolkien' are PJackson-focused (mostly fangirl-y fawning over his pretty 'dwarves').

Due to differences between the various printings, I think we can do away with page numbers (unless someone has access to a 50th anniversary Big Red Leatherbound One-Volume) and just cite Book & Chapter.

What format should this take? Slideshows are nice, but since we're mostly dealing with text references, I think just having each entry with keyword classification (like Greg's example of "<surcoat quote> - LotR Bk_, Ch'__'. Clothing, Gondor, 3A") would probably work fine for now, AND it'd be user-searchable.
Each category can have its own page? (Clothing, arms/armour, food, &c). That way, if you want to know what a Beorning might wear, you can go to the page of clothing references and Ctrl-F for 'Beorning'.

The next question is how the keywords will be broken down. Regional seems pretty clear (Eriador, Rhovanion, Gondor, Rohan, Mordor...), then cultural area (Shire, Bree-land, Lorien, Lake-town, Beornings...), plus a tag by race (Hobbit, Men, Elf, Dwarf, Orc, Ent, Wose...) and Age (1A,2A,3A,4A). Perhaps smaller distinctions can be made in parentheses: "Clothing; Hobbits; Shire (Buckland); 3A".

With a little tweaking I can have Foodstuffs in a workable form.
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Greg »

Excellent. This could really shape up.

What do we want to cover, as a total list?

I'm thinking:

Food
Livestock/Animals
Clothing
Weapons & Armor
Common Tools (non-martial, which would include Cooking supplies, and everyday items, such as the copper full of hot bath water at Crickhollow)
Fabric/Materials
Art/Cultural (including music, etc.)

Thoughts? Additions/changes, etc.?
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Ursus
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Ursus »

This sounds fantastic! I would love to tackle the weapons and armor section. I have a literal heap of notes and scribbles on the topic as far as martial history and how it correlates to different Middle Earth cultures. Additionally I would add some sort of section on tracking and general movement/woodcraft, of which I would also like to volunteer to help with. Great idea!
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Greg »

We have a space designated under woodcraft for Tracking, but no one has yet fleshed that out. I think it's got your name written all over it!

As for the Weapons and Armor section, keep compiling, and once we all settle on a format so that each list is searchable in the same general way, you can tackle that, too.
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Udwin »

Ursus, are you talking about spearheading (pun!) the warfare content for the existing (content-less) wiki pages, or the primary-source/text-evidence database that is in the works?

I like your list of categories, Greg. I might change Clothing to Garments, add one for Jewelry. Should Trees (Wood?) be a separate category, or just include them in Materials?

How do you guys think would be the best way to organize these? One page for each main category (war, garments, &c)? or perhaps by source (one page for each of Tolkien's books)?
Take this passage, for example:

“The poorer hobbits, and especially those of Bagshot Row, did very well. Old Gaffer Gamgee got two sacks of potatoes, a new spade, a woollen waistcoat, and a bottle of ointment for creaking joints.”
(The Lord of the Rings, Book I The Ring Sets Out, Chapter 1: A Long-Expected Party)

I would tag it as SOCIAL ('poorer'); FOOD (taters); TOOLS (spade); MATERIALS (wool); CLOTHING (waistcoat); MEDICINE (ointment); ERIADOR; SHIRE (duh); HOBBITS (ditto); 3A.
Should this same passage appear on the page for each of the categories it contains?, or just on a page for LR Book 1 evidences with all of its tags?
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Greg »

I would arrange them by books, I think. That'd keep the lists smaller (relatively) and easier to sort...I think.
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Ursus »

Udwin wrote:Ursus, are you talking about spearheading (pun!) the warfare content for the existing (content-less) wiki pages, or the primary-source/text-evidence database that is in the works?


Both if I may. One thing I've noticed for some time now is that the forum lacks a full time, for lack of better words, master at arms. I would like to take this opportunity to offer my services here. If I may be so bold I think it likely that I am the only combat instructor on the forum who teaches real time, full contact HEMA. My experience covers the areas of Longsword, sword and shield/buckler, sword and dagger, messer, knife work, and many different polearms as well as hand to hand work. All of this is backed by over 12 years of serious historical research, a personal historically based daily training regimen, and weekly classes instructed by yours truly. My school the Bear Knuckle Fechtschule, while small, is the only full operational school of arms that I know of in southern Illinois and I'm an active ARMA member as well. I already have many small articles and thoughts in various stages of completion on Middle Earth and how historical martial culture and arms and armor relates. Let me know what you guys think.
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Greg
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Greg »

Well, as of right now, we don't really have any 'staff' or 'official resident experts' on any one topic. There are a few who clearly preside over certain topics (an obvious one would be Falconry...'cuz I'm the only Falconer) but nothing's 'official' or written, per say.

However.

I could see there being a place for such a designation down the road, when this information is fully fleshed out, perhaps even being to the point where at the bottom of the applicable pages, there be a link to a member profile labeled "For more information, feel free to contact so-and-so". I think that would be doable in the future, but I'll tag onto it one of the more annoying things my employers have ever told me: "If you want to do that, you have to create the job."

In this case, I don't have the authority to give anyone a job...it's Jack's website. BUT, if you were to follow through and really make all of the information you seem to have at your disposal, particularly as it pertains to Middle-Earth, I could see such a designation existing because of your contributions.

In short...show us what you got, and this may very well happen!

Looking forward to reading. Let me know if you have trouble with formatting, etc. on the wiki. I'd like to see if we can't get the individual martial pages on the wiki fleshed out first, and then as a few of the pages in this material culture resource come together, you'd have an idea of where to go with your information for a similar, searchable list on your topic.
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Peter Remling
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Peter Remling »

Udwin wrote: Should Trees (Wood?) be a separate category, or just include them in Materials?
How about plants/vegetation ?
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Re: Middle-earth material culture resource

Post by Ursus »

I'm really looking forward to this project. I'll begin polishing and updating my notes stat. I'll do my best not to take any liberties but some things may need to be stretched a bit in order to link them with history. Expect some well thought out but lengthy posts about different swords as far as fit, form, and function goes in relation to the Middle Earth ranger to be the first to go up.
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