Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

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Eofor
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Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Eofor »

I am surprised that I haven't come across this before as it ticks just about every box I have.
A translation and reading of the end of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields in Old English and West Saxon at that! It's actually quite a good translation too.

I have included a link below which starts at the Song of the Mounds of Mundburg because I think it's pretty fantastic that you can hear the song as it would have been written and recited by the unnamed poet of Rohan but the rest is fantastic too.
I may contact him for more work.

https://youtu.be/HJ2zxhUTo5I?t=337
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Iodo »

I don't understand any of that but it is still awesome :P
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
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Re: Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Eofor »

Iodo wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:18 pm I don't understand any of that but it is still awesome :P
That's quite alright my dear Dwarf, just close your eyes and listen to the poem as Gimli would have at the funeral of Theoden.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Elleth »

Just the flow of those words sounds lovely.

What I especially like though is that there's just enough of the old tongue still in our modern day speech that - especially reading along - there's these tiny little sparks of comprehension in that great sea of words. Everything is completely strange, then a phrase that (however it's spelled) still sounds close enough to modern English that is shocks you and you go all "oh!! that makes sense!"

It reminds me of the 13th Warrior "Ibn learns the language" scene, which is similarly fun.
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Re: Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Cimrandir »

I love it! Listened to it at work whilst analyzing some artifacts and it definitely swept me away to a far more epic time. Thank you for posting this.

As an aside, I went backwards and listened to the whole thing and about at the 0:59 and 5:10 mark, he recites the section about Rangers of the North/Halbarad the dour-handed Ranger. I've often wondered about an OE translation for Ranger. Am I correct that he uses the words "Widrincas" and "Widrinc" for Rangers/Ranger? If so, what does that translate to? I've often thought something along the lines of "eardstapa" for the solitary wandering nature of Rangers but now I'm curious if there's a better way to translate it.

Also, I'm assuming Dúnedæġn is a straight transliteration of Dúnedain? Elvish to OE seems like it would be difficult. :lol:
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Re: Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Elleth »

You've got the right word. It's not in my glossary (Peter Baker's "Introduction to Old English" and I don't see it in Bosworth, BUT... from context it looks derived from wid- - our "wide" - and so would loosely translate as "people who range across a wide expanse of land." I'm sure Eofor knows better though. :mrgreen:

edit, we have "wíd" / wide -
https://bosworthtoller.com/35535
... used in the context of wide-ranging here -
"wíd-farende" => "wide-faring/wandering"
https://bosworthtoller.com/35548

and "rinc" a "poetical" term for man -
https://bosworthtoller.com/25895

... used in context of warbands -
fyrd-rinc => "man of arms, soldier"
https://bosworthtoller.com/12913


So presumably we're looking at something like "soldier of the wide(lands)."
I like it!

FWIW, I have seen "eardstapa" (or similar, I'd have to double check the spelling) in Pollington's "Wordhoard" so you're definitely on a good track there as well.
Edit - it's in Baker as well -
eardstapa, "land-traveller," "wanderer"
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Re: Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Cimrandir »

I confess that I have no glosses or dictionaries and that I stole "eardstapa" directly from the eponymous Old English poem The Wanderer. It's generally dated to the late 9th century. Bringing it back to Middle-earth though, the Professor disagreed and thought a more proper translation would be "The Exile."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wande ... lish_poem)

I've also seen "mearcstapa" - march-stepper and "mearcweard" which is glossed as wolf but translates literally into march-guard.

Also from The Wanderer is "anhaga" (Solitary One)

Anyway, good call on wid/wide. Makes sense to me!

Edit to your edit-
Elleth wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:41 pm You've got the right word. It's not in my glossary (Peter Baker's "Introduction to Old English" and I don't see it in Bosworth, BUT... from context it looks derived from wid- - our "wide" - and so would loosely translate as "people who range across a wide expanse of land." I'm sure Eofor knows better though. :mrgreen:

edit, we have "wíd" / wide -
https://bosworthtoller.com/35535
... used in the context of wide-ranging here -
"wíd-farende" => "wide-faring/wandering"
https://bosworthtoller.com/35548

and "rinc" a "poetical" term for man -
https://bosworthtoller.com/25895

... used in context of warbands -
fyrd-rinc => "man of arms, soldier"
https://bosworthtoller.com/12913


So presumably we're looking at something like "soldier of the wide(lands)."
Awesome. Thank you. I confess I don't really see Rangers as soldiers but the YouTube translator might have a different concept than I and the word works as well as any other I suppose!
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Re: Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Elleth »

I confess I don't really see Rangers as soldiers but the YouTube translator might have a different concept than I
I think this perhaps is a lost-in-translation thing, just because our culture is so different from pre-Norman Britain, especially pre-Christian Anglo-Saxon Britain. Eofor can correct me, but looking at the context, perhaps something between "militiaman" (for fyrdrinc) and "warrior / fighting-man of the chief's guard " might be closer to the original meaning.

I might have used weard rather than rinc, but I certainly don't have the expertise to contest the translation.
And - to be fair - the Rangers as seen through Anglo-Saxon (or Rohirric? :mrgreen: ) eyes might well be seen as more warriors than wards - especially since they're met on campaign.
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Re: Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Cimrandir »

A fair point and not one I would have considered. It makes sense that these burly warriors from Rohan would look upon "Rangers sat, silent, in an ordered company, armed with spear and bow and sword. They were clad in cloaks of dark grey, and their hoods were cast now over helm and head. Their horses were strong and of proud bearing, but rough-haired.." and see perhaps not the solitary wanderer engaged in covert guardianship of a peaceful people but a proud warrior elite not unlike themselves. I like that they would have a different name for the Dúnedain and one that would reflect their own cultural touchstone. And I do forget that Rangers is not a term chosen by the Dúnedain either sometimes. Most excellent chain of thought, Elleth. Thank you!
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Re: Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Greg »

This whole thread is gold.
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Re: Old English reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Post by Eofor »

You guys are the best!

I have little to add to the riddle that you have deciphered as in the end with no direct translation then any of the options you and he have suggested are both feasible and debatable.

The translator himself says in the description of the video -
I could write considerable much about my translation choices here.
and certainly we could discuss in detail what the best translation for a Dunedain ranger would be.

I quite like that fact, that a Ranger may be known both as a wide farer, march stepper, soldier of the wide lands or any other number of kennings. This is just another example of Old English/Norse kenning system where someone or something may be named in many different ways.
We see an early example of this when Eomer meets the three hunters and quickly brands Aragorn as 'Wingfoot' and many of the names of the Rohirrim themselves are formed from the same naming system - Wídfara - wide traveller.

I agree with Elleth's opinion that to the Rohirrim the Grey company would have appeared more like a band of warriors than individual scouts and then to further muddy the waters as they came to act as a personal guard to Aragorn in an Anglo Saxon military structure they would have carried the title Grægweorod - Grey hearthguard (like i said at the start, so many options all of which are correct but also debatable)
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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